THE OMNI SHOW

Andrew J. Mason: You're listening to The Omni Show where we connect with the amazing community surrounding the Omni Group's award-winning products. My name's Andrew J. Mason, and today is our OmniFocus 4 release episode special. Well, hello and welcome to this episode of The Omni Show. My name's Andrew J. Mason and we are beyond excited because today is the OmniFocus 4 release episode and because of that, we have CEO Ken Case in the house with us. Hello, Ken.

Ken Case: Hello.

Andrew J. Mason: And also the ever-awesome Ainsley Bourque Olson, product manager with us. Ainsley, how are you?

Ainsley Bourque Olson: Hi, Andrew. I'm great. Thanks for having me.

Andrew J. Mason: It is absolutely our honor, and I have to say the timing of this episode is ridiculously good because as of the airing of this episode, we will have just released or are just about to release OmniFocus version 4 and I'm feeling a little bit excited. Are you excited?

Ken Case: I'm super excited, absolutely. Yeah. It has been a long time in the works, this project. Obviously, it's not the only thing we've been working on even as the OmniFocus team, but it's been a big focus of our lives for many years now.

Ainsley Bourque Olson: Yeah, I'm really excited. I took over product management for OmniFocus just as we are getting this project off the ground. I'm excited regardless, but this is great.

Andrew J. Mason: Yeah, I'm sure Ainsley, for you, this represents a massive checkbox like checked off. I don't know how many years it's been sitting in the project folder, but just like, it's checked.

Ainsley Bourque Olson: You should see my to-do list. The checklists have checklists. It's very exciting to mark all those off.

Andrew J. Mason: It's funny you say that because I do want to dive into that later on, the idea of using OmniFocus to develop OmniFocus, and I think a great place to start is to maybe talk about OmniFocus 4's redesign requirements. It was really just this tension that was walked between two different things. I know one, we wanted to make it more approachable for newcomers.

So if you've never picked up OmniFocus before, it's just that much easier to get started and get productive. I know the second though is to retain all of those existing capabilities that our existing customers know and love. So it's like how do we walk the tension between power user and newcomer in order to make it the best of both worlds for both. So why those two requirements, and then Ken, I'd love if you'd start us off.

Ken Case: Well, sure. We wanted to make OmniFocus much more approachable for new customers just because of course, that makes it easier for people to use and get into and do everything else, and not only more approachable for new customers because it benefits people learning the software, but more approachable I think helps everyone. It even helps me.

The easier it is to do something in the app, the easier it is for everyone no matter how experienced they are, and at the same time, we thought it was really important to preserve the power that OmniFocus is known for because that's why so many people come to OmniFocus. We're not trying to just build another reminders clone. Apple already has one that's built in, it's free and it's great if your needs are simple, but if you have more complex needs, then we need a more powerful tool to help you with that.

Andrew J. Mason: Absolutely, and I really believe that, and I hope our customers will agree, that we've walked that line very, very well. So talk to us about this unique TestFlight experience this time around as opposed to previous software iterations. What was different? What was the same? Ainsley, maybe start with you.

Ainsley Bourque Olson: So OmniFocus 4 has been in TestFlight for several years now. We started with a iOS-only TestFlight that was geared towards the iPad redesign, which is where we started development, and then we launched the Mac app into TestFlight a little while later. We eventually reached our 10,000 tester cap that Apple imposes. That's not us cutting the list off. That's Apple saying that's as high as you can go, and we've had a lot of really great feedback. Folks have been very, very involved.

It's a little tricky to compare it to previous TestFlights. Omni has a long history of running beta tests. If you go back, you can skim through our blog to the launch of OmniFocus 1 15 years ago and we were running public tests at that point. I wasn't working at Omni at that point, so I can't really provide much insight into how it compares, but we didn't have TestFlight then. That's a newer tool from Apple that we didn't, several years ago, didn't necessarily have the same capabilities in TestFlight.

Part of the change is that we didn't previously have these tools. I've previously run the OmniPlan port TestFlight, which had a similar open invite, but OmniPlan customers are project managers using OmniPlan in their day-to-day business and there may be a little bit less eager to run a beta build and give us the kind of feedback that our OmniFocus 4 customers are. So it's been really great to see people willing to install those beta builds and give them the full, here's my data, let's see how it works, and pretty enthusiastically tell us what does and doesn't work for them. Ken, I don't know if you want to add more context there.

Ken Case: One of the interesting things around this release in general is that we are building this very complex app that has a rich history, 15 years of history already. We're rebuilding it in a new programming framework called SwiftUI that Apple released a few years back, right about the time we started this project. So we jumped on it right as SwiftUI was new and started adopting it and taking advantage of it, and what we've delivered now wasn't actually possible with SwiftUI where it was when we started a few years ago.

So over time, as we hit the limits of what SwiftUI was capable of doing, then we would provide feedback to Apple and then they would think about it and often, we wouldn't get changes until the next WWDC in June. All right, here are the improvements that take that feedback into account and here's what we're doing to make it easier to scale SwiftUI up to the app that we're building in OmniFocus, and so that process has been interesting too to go through over the past few years and we've had now a few years of iteration with Apple that way where the frameworks have improved and have led us to do more in the app.

Ainsley Bourque Olson: Circling that all back around, as I mentioned, we ran the iOS and Mac TestFlight at the same time. This is the first time we've launched a major new version of our software across all platforms simultaneously. So because we're using SwiftUI, the inspector code is shared cross-platform. That's something we've never done before, at least in the same capacity.

So if we make a change to the inspector, maybe someone gives us feedback on the Mac side, maybe that feedback comes in from an iPhone customer and that's just a whole new experience that we've never attempted before. Getting everything right across all the devices at the same time has been ambitious and been really, I think really rewarding in how it's paid off.

Ken Case: Yeah, it's letting us do a simultaneous release for the first time, a major release of our app across all the platforms at the same time.

Andrew J. Mason: It's really interesting as we talk about the universality of this all where downstream, you've got these tight feedback loops with TestFlight and people giving you rapid feedback about how things are going. Upstream, you're talking to Apple saying, hey, this is what we see. Here are the edges of where we're programming, here's where we see the boundaries. Can you help us out with X, but what I really do love about the universality of the app is that now, each platform is taking elements of all the others, but retaining the best of each. So talk to us about this process, Ken.

Ken Case: Absolutely. The Mac app is the most mature of our apps. It's the one we started with before the iPhone even existed. So in many ways, the Mac app was the source of a lot of the cross-platform pollinization. So things like bringing over an editable outline with expandable content where you could edit everything right in place and so on. That's something we've always had on the Mac and we've never had on the iPhone or the iPad. Faster navigation mechanisms where we had an always visible perspective bar where we have quick open. Those are features that were also already on the Mac, but they're new to the iPhone, they're new to the iPad. So far, you hear me going one direction from the Mac, but as we built things and adapted them to the iPhone, we realized this is something that we could do better on the Mac as well. So for example, on the iPhone, because the screen space is so limited, we adapted that outline to be more flexible. So you could say, here are the fields that I want to see all the time.

And here are the fields that I want to see while I'm editing and I can rearrange their order and so on. Well, of course, once we had done that on the iPhone, we brought that feature back to the Mac. So that's something that happened just during this TestFlight process, and there are also some features that we brought back to the Mac that we'd long had on the iPhone like the support for location-based tags. So you can have notifications that you're setting up that are based on where you are. When you pass by a grocery store, you're reminded, hey, you want to pick something up there?

Andrew J. Mason: And to be clear, it's not just taking the best of each elements from all the others and retaining the best of each, but it's also there are all new elements. I think of interactive widgets. I think of quick open, the back button. Talk to us about what's new.

Ken Case: Sure. Well, the list is long. I was just looking at the release notes that Ainsley has been editing as we prepare for this final release and there's a lot to cover, but I already mentioned that we brought some of these rich navigation features over from the Mac to the iPhone and iPad, but there's some new navigation features that we never had anywhere that we have now like back and forward history. Sorry, this is not new, but I do want to bring it up anyway.

The iPhone and iPad now have this Mac feature of the focus, which is a pro feature where you can say I want to focus in on my work tasks and only see that throughout my entire database, all the perspectives, or only on my personal tasks at the end of the day and I can tune out or I can think about other things, but some of the other all new features, well, of course, we have this customizable fluid outline. We have new features in forecasts like being able to show your flagged items, include them in the list.

Or a more flexible organization where you can reorder the day's tasks and events relative to each other and say, here's what I want my outline of the day to be and it's not based just on when things are due, but when it makes sense for me to get them done, and you can also do that now in custom perspectives. So you can reorder the items there, order them in more flexible ways, preserve their hierarchy and so on.

And again, there's just a long list of new features, but those are some of the highlights along with Interactive Widgets, which is a new feature that was enabled just this summer when Apple developed iOS 17 and macOS 14. Now we have these new capabilities on the platforms that while we're busy just trying to ship this new code that we've built, we also wanted to integrate with Apple's new code.

Andrew J. Mason: I love that you're nearing the end of the dev cycle and then Apple says, hey, interactive widgets, and you're like, let's do it. Let's put it in there, and not even to mention a standalone watch app as well. This is something entirely new. So talk about that.

Ken Case: Yeah. Well, since we built this code in SwiftUI, we realized we had an opportunity here. Now to really rethink what we did on the watch. The SwiftUI scale is an application framework that scales all the way from the largest screens, the Mac screens or the Apple TV screens, I guess, down to the smallest screens on your watch, and of course, you can't share the exact same designs across all of those sizes because designs make sense at different screen sizes.

But we were able to take a lot of the code and reinvent the watch app, make it an independent app so its syncs on its own and you know that it's always up-to-date with whatever sync data is in the cloud, rather than having to make sure that your phone has synced recently and then send that data over to the watch and then as you interact with it on the watch, find that it's immediately getting out of date because it's not syncing in the live way.

Ainsley Bourque Olson: A cool side effect of this is we were able to, as we rewrote this watch app, take, I think it was like eight of our top 10 feature requests for the watch app and hit them all in one go. Folks have been asking for access to save all of their perspectives of the watch app or their full database. So SwiftUI let us write this cool new watch app without too much overhead, and in the process, we got to take care of a whole bunch of stuff that customers have been telling us they've wanted for as long as the Apple Watch has been out there. So great to hit both of those at the same time.

Andrew J. Mason: When I heard this feature, I was honestly pleasantly surprised because the watch now, I'm one of the people that I think the truth be told, I do reference material on my watch as well, and to be able to hold the entire database, two, three gigabytes worth of material hanging out right here on your wrist is pretty cool.

Ken Case: It's amazing how much more powerful that little wrist computer has gotten over the years that it's now, it has as much memory as the original iPad did that we brought on [inaudible 00:11:50].

Andrew J. Mason: Wow, that's pretty impressive. We have this phrase I've heard internally, folks have been saying the phrase universal license, universal experience, and I know we've been sharing that internally. What does that phrase mean to you, this consistent experience across all of Apple's platforms?

Ken Case: Well, mentioned already that we wanted to bring the best elements of each platform's design to the other platforms, and of course, that we wanted to make things more approachable. One of the things that helps make the app more approachable is making it more consistent so you don't have to learn it over and over again as you go from one platform to another.

Or how am I supposed to do this on that platform versus the one I learned first, and so part of this is really thanks to SwiftUI being able to have a single implementation for this code. We tried to make the experience much more consistent both around how the navigation works, how the outline works, even the appearance of things, the icons we're using, the layout of the rows. It just feels great to have this app now feel like the same app everywhere.

Andrew J. Mason: Ainsley, what about you?

Ainsley Bourque Olson: The other part of this is the universal purchase aspect. So we've always distributed our Mac and iOS application separately. Initially, that was honestly a thing that we had to do. Apple didn't support a cross-platform license, but we're now at a point where we can do cross-platform licenses and we are. So we started this with OmniPlan 4, although those shipped asynchronously as single OmniPlan 4 purchase license OmniPlan 4 across all your devices.

With OmniFocus 4, everything's launching on day one and you buy it once and you have access to it everywhere. We are offering both our traditional license purchases, which are just a one-time upfront, they get you OmniFocus 4 for the lifecycle of the app as well as the subscriptions that we've offered for several years now, and both of those now unlock OmniFocus across all your devices. So you sign in with that Omni account, you're greeted with a similar interface. We really hope this helps folks get up and running really seamlessly with OmniFocus 4 right away everywhere.

Andrew J. Mason: This isn't even really a question, but just stream of consciousness thought here. I will say I am above the year of 40 in age, and I'm curious, I'm experiencing this phenomenon where something new happens, there's a new feature, a new button, something's in a new place, I am excited, but cautiously so and there's a space in me, there's a part of myself that's like, I don't want to change. I don't want to do new things.

And I don't know if it's the muscle memory that's stored up from doing things a certain way, but for anybody that's feeling those feelings, that cautious optimism, that cautious excitement about, okay, new version, that's great. What I love about this is, number one, you can run OmniFocus 3 and 4 side by side so you can get a taste of what 4 has to offer, what it's like, what the new features are, where new things are located without losing your productivity or your database from 3.

But number two, something that was so refreshing for me too was the reduced amount of taps it took to get from place to place, and so it's like, yeah, if you want things to stay the way they are in the same way that they are, I have my system. I have muscle memories set up. You can still leverage all of that and get the best of both worlds as you get used to where things are located when something's new, and I realize that's not even a question. It's just a thought I'm throwing out there, but it's so cool to be able to see the improvement, but also have zero risk involved.

Ainsley Bourque Olson: That's a great point about being able to run OmniFocus 3 and OmniFocus 4 side-by-side. That was something we were very intentional about. We didn't want anyone stuck. Again, really trying to make this upgrade process as easy and seamless for folks who rely out on OmniFocus as part of their daily life because we know it's so ingrained in people's workflows.

Andrew J. Mason: Yeah, yeah. Your thoughts, Ken.

Ken Case: So we considered it a design constraint, and in fact, it limits some of the things we thought we might try to do like do we want to make this change? Well, that would involve changing the data format. It would no longer sync with version 3 in a compatible way. No, not now. We'll do it later. There will be plenty of version 4 updates down the road where we can do more things, but right now, we want to make sure that the upgrade from 3 to 4 is as seamless as possible and that you can just keep thinking and going.

I wanted to branch off of something else you mentioned in that last comment, which was where you were talking about how many taps it took to get from one place to another. Now tap already implies that we're talking about the touch devices. The app where this was the worst was really on the iPhone where when you would launch the app, you would go into a home screen that would show you a list of perspectives and you might not even know what the perspectives were about yet.

And you'd have to hunt around, okay, figure out which one you wanted to be in, what you wanted to add to as you were learning the app, but then even once you knew the app, whenever you wanted to get from one place to another, you would have to go back up to that home screen then back down into the other place, and because we didn't have the expandable outline in place, you would have to go digging down maybe several levels of taps to get down to the right project, maybe to get down inside a group of actions and then find the real action.

And then if you actually wanted to edit that action, you would tap on it yet again to go to a detailed specter screen is what we'd call it, where all of those extra details would be in place. With version 4, we've gotten rid of all of those extra layers of tapping to get from one place to another where when you launch the app, you see a list of tasks right away, just like you might in reminders. You tap on a task and you are editing it right away in place, not going to some separate screen, and we have that perspective bar always visible along the bottom where you can just switch from one place to another without having to go up to a home screen and come back. It's really much more fluid and much faster to use.

Andrew J. Mason: And I don't know if anybody out there is a nested folder kind of a person. I absolutely am and it's a game changer. It's exponential to be able to say, I don't have to go back up from twig to branch to tree trunk to root, but I can just jump from twig to twig. Hopefully, that makes sense. So there's not a whole lot of traveling up and down. There's sideways motion now as well, which is really useful when you just want to go see something.

Ken Case: Some of these things build on each other too. Because we added the navigation history where you can go back to where you just came from, that meant it was no longer so costly to go from one place to another. In version 3, if you had a hypertext link in your notes that said, okay, well, take me to this other perspective or this other task, you can use copy as link to put one of those in your notes.

If you tapped on one of those links in version 3, we felt like we had to put a little barrier up saying, are you sure you want to tap on that because you're going to go somewhere else and it's going to be a pain to get back. With version 4, we were able to get rid of that entirely because we knew you could just follow that link and if you wanted to come back, you just hit that back button.

Andrew J. Mason: So cool, and it reminds me of the idea of contextual computing where people talk about tunneling specifically from one piece of needed data or one experience to another experience and being able to just travel in that direct route. Very, very useful. Talk to me a little bit about the bug squashing process. Over the development period, what would you say was one of the most hard won bugs? It was difficult to figure out, but over time, whether it was because we bumped up against the limitations of SwiftUI or for whatever reason, it was a difficult thing to figure out, but we nailed it, we finally got it.

Ken Case: Well, one engineering bug that comes to mind is one that we worked on for about two and a half years, and we kept taking stabs at it and we kept failing and we kept trying yet another thing, and we sent feedback to Apple and they didn't have any answers for us, and we waited a year and the new version of SwiftUI and we sent it back again. They still didn't have an answer for us and another year and so on, and we kept trying to do it. And that was one of our goals with this editable outline in place is that you ought to be able to just easily tap on a task and drag it around in the list to someplace else in the list to reorder things or reorganize things, drop something onto another task to make it a child task and so on, and all of that worked great if you were in a dedicated mode where all you did was drag and drop, but we had this conflict happening where if you were trying to edit text like the title, which is a common thing to do.

You tap on the item and you've got your title. You tap on the title, we bring up the long press menu to give you a bunch of contextual menu items to say like, okay, do I want to, I don't know, share this task or whatever, but we would also, we wanted you to be able to drag out of that menu to start a drag and drop operation because often, that long press menu could happen very quickly, especially if people had set their settings. There's an iPhone setting that says how long is a long press, and it's an under accessibility settings.

And so some people would set that very fast because it would immediately let them bring up that menu and it felt more responsive to them, but then that got in the way of drag and drop because you couldn't drag out of that. Only if you started that tap on the title, which was again, a natural place for people to want to tap. You could tap anywhere else in the row and it would be fine, and this was a weird conflict in SwiftUI and we worked over and over again to try to find ways to work around it, and we finally solved that just last month, I think, after filing it back in February of 2021, I think, something like that.

Ainsley Bourque Olson: And when Ken refers to the filing, so we're implementing this UI in SwiftUI and there are certain things that just doesn't support yet. So in those cases, we need to let Apple know that, hey, we'd like to be able to do X, Y, or Z in SwiftUI. We can't do it right now. So we file that feedback with Apple, let them know what we're trying to do, and then we read our own custom thing is often the solution, which is it gets us there, but just gets us there a different way.

So that's what that little workflow looked like when we hit it. An example that comes to mind there is the voiceover support that we just updated. Excited to see that OmniFocus 4 is much more a voiceover compatible and should hopefully be a more expected voiceover experience for our customers to use that feature, but Plan A didn't pan out.

So instead, we chatted with a voiceover customer about, okay, what if we approached it this way and came up with another solution that I think is quite nice, but still works within the limitations of the existing framework and we're hoping that maybe eventually, Apple will address that specific feedback we filed with them and we can further update our voiceover support in a 4X update to be even more seamless for those customers.

Andrew J. Mason: The level of nuance and detail that shows up here for the average user not thinking about the length of their taps impacting or not impacting, or where specifically they tap in that tap target. Very, very cool that you're thinking about that, and also I think a high five too for not just saying, hey, we're going to develop whatever it is that helps us move our product forward.

But also being in conversation with Apple saying, hey, we think other developers would really find this useful. Just a little bit of extra that I think means a lot. When you think back over this development cycle and everything that OmniFocus 4 has that's new, what new feature are each of you personally the most excited about?

Ken Case: I struggle to think of just to limit it. I said you're thinking of all of the things we've already talked about and how I love all of them, but I guess if I were to pick something, try to narrow down onto something maybe a little smaller, it might be the forecast being able to preserve hierarchy. What does that enable? Well, it used to be in earlier versions of OmniFocus when you would set a due date on a project, that due date would, of course, be inherited by all the tasks in that project.

Which meant that as that project approached and the deadline approached, you'd see any tasks that didn't have their own earlier due date now show up in your forecast with this due date. So for example, if you're packing to go on a trip and you set a due date of your packing, you would see your whole packing list of socks and so on in your forecast, that it was just easy to clutter up your forecast with a list of things, and so one way of working around that in the past was I'll just put all that stuff in notes instead.

But then you couldn't check it off. You didn't really have good control over it in the way that OmniFocus should let you do. Now that we can preserve hierarchy, that means that the hierarchy of the project and all of the things inside of it are preserved in forecast. You can collapse it and say all you want to see in forecast is the title of the project itself. If you want to get to the details, of course, you can expand that outline right in place and see all of the children check them off individually, they're in forecast, but it's no longer something that has to clutter it up all the time.

Andrew J. Mason: And what about you, Ainsley?

Ainsley Bourque Olson: As I've mentioned, I use OmniFocus. So I'm shipping OmniFocus 4 with lots of lists in OmniFocus 4 itself, and a feature that I'm personally really enjoying is manually sorted custom perspectives, and I think folks are going to find it really, really useful. So in my personal database, I've got a custom perspective that I call work list and it's anything in my work folders that I've flagged or has a due soon due date or that I've tagged that's literally called today ends up in this list.

I've got Preserve Hierarchy, which is a new setting enabled, and I can drag and drop that list into the exact order I want to do it today. So every week, I put out a new TestFlight bill. That TestFlight bill is a action group with four or five little things I do to make sure it's in the right state for our testers, and when I want to prioritize those first thing, I move those action groups to the top of my list, maybe right behind an urgent email I need to send and I can work through, I have a list that looks exactly how if I was jotting things down on a piece of paper.

I'd have them written down that order, but instead, it's pulled from a dozen different projects across the various things I'm responsible for at Omni all in one place. So I find that really, really powerful and I'm excited for more folks to integrate that into their workflow because I think it's going to take customer perspectives, which I know folks already rely on just a little bit further.

And then I've got, this is what I'm still playing with, but I've got that list reflected on a widget on my Mac desktop because I'm running macOS Sonoma, and I can check those items right off from that widget. I still keep my OmniFocus window open. I'm not quite ready to close it, but theoretically, I could close that window and work directly from that widget without having to cross-reference the application. So that's a two for one in features that I'm personally using and I'm quite excited about.

Ken Case: One of the things that excites me about this release from the engineering side of things, this doesn't show up at all from a user's point of view, but from the engineering point of view, it's so much easier now to build these rich interfaces that do a lot more things, whether it's the new settings that we have on the iPhone and so on. Because we're using SwiftUI, because the work that we're doing applies to more devices at once, it just saves us so much time and it's a lot more rewarding to build new features because you know you don't have to build it several times as you redo it again for each platform.

Ainsley Bourque Olson: One thing we did at JS DevCycle, so we had these plans for making the app more approachable using SwiftUI, these things, but then we also, every time someone emails us and says, hey, I'd like to do this in your software, we note that in our database. So we have 15 years of customers telling us, hey, Forecast is so powerful. I love it. Nobody else has it, but I really want to show flagged tasks. I really want to be able to change the order.

So it's very cool that we were able to take a look at those requests and address so many of them where you listen to people say, hey, this is how I'd like to use your software to make me even more productive, and with iPhone, we were able to say, hey, let's do that. Let's let you use the software the way you're asking us to let you use it. Make this already very powerful customizable app and do just a little bit more so you can set that list exactly how your brain works because everybody's works a little bit differently.

I am very excited for our new icons and the corners that are around that used to be sharp and vice versa. I think it looks beautiful across all the devices. So we've been looking at screenshots as we get ready for launch, getting things polished up and ready for folks to take a preview look at. So I'm very excited to get this application onto folks' devices. Anyone who has 10,001 for the TestFlight, I know there are lots of folks waiting to give it a try. So we're very excited to get it on people's devices.

Ken Case: I want to take this opportunity to thank everybody who was involved in the TestFlight. Those 10,000 people signed up for something that maybe they didn't even know what they were getting into, but there've been a lot of changes and we've done a lot of experimentation along the way, and it's helped so much to know that there are all these people who are taking a look at it, giving us feedback, telling us what works for them, what doesn't work for them, and making the app a better product in the end. So we hope that it serves a lot of people's needs better than it would've otherwise.

Ainsley Bourque Olson: As you listen to this, I really want to encourage folks to take advantage of that free two-week trial of OmniFocus 4. Grab it, as Ken just said, from our website, from any of the app stores, give an install, sign with your Omni account and get that two-week trial started. It can run side-by-side with OmniFocus 3. So if you're already set up with OmniFocus, there's no rest to giving OmniFocus 4 a try at the same time, and we really hope folks love it and share feedback with us as they have it because this isn't the end of the line for OmniFocus 4. We're launching it. We've got lots of exciting stuff planned for the future. We're excited to just keep making it a better app.

Andrew J. Mason: And that is it. OmniFocus 4 is released at omnigroup.com/omnifocus or the App Store. Thanks to Ken and Ainsley for hanging out today, and thanks to all of you for listening. You can find us on Mastodon at The Omni Show at omnigroup.com. You can also find out everything that's happening with the Omni Group at omnigroup.com/blog.