THE OMNI SHOW

Rosemary Orchard: Both gone for more tasks in some areas, especially where I can do things like batch processing and then getting less granular in other areas because it can end up being a little bit overwhelming, opening a project and going, "Oh my God, there's 200 items here." That's kind of the point where you just close OmniFocus and you go like, "I'm just going to go eat some chocolate." Right?

Andrew J. Mason: And today we have Rosemary Orchard sharing how she uses OmniFocus. Well, hello and welcome everybody to this episode of the Omni Show. My name is Andrew J. Mason, and today we are thrilled to be able to have Rosemary Orchard with us as the co-host of iOS Today and author of Build Your OmniFocus Workflow and Take Control of Shortcuts. Rose is a go-to voice in the productivity space and a good friend of the Omni Group. Thank you so much for joining us, Rosemary.

Rosemary Orchard: Well, thank you very much for having me. It's been a while since I've been on the show, but I'm really glad to be back.

Andrew J. Mason: It's fantastic to have you and 2019, that's quite a bit of time for catch-up, we've since... And you've been busy, I must say. You've been busy. Do you mind catching everybody up to what you've been up to in the last couple of years as things have gone on?

Rosemary Orchard: So not that long after I was on the show actually, there was a whole global pandemic thing, which was a bit of a drag, caused a couple of health problems, all of those things. I decided that that was the perfect time to move country because of course of what else are you going to do in a pandemic other than move country because that's not complicated. I'm going to say I have more than one OmniFocus project for this. I did use OmniPlan and OmniOutliner for chunks of it as well. I've moved country. I ended up moving jobs as well. I got an ADHD diagnosis, I bought a house. I've done loads of things and I've also founded a small indie app development business, making little shortcuts, utility apps, which is kind of fun as well. So I've been doing a whole bunch of things, but still being productive and still using OmniFocus a lot.

Andrew J. Mason: I must say, to take seven years and kind of throw it into a concise three sentence pair. You really have kind of brought that down and distilled it into its essence, which is awesome. Tell us more about the indie app development software company that you've got going there. That's awesome.

Rosemary Orchard: So during the pandemic, it turned out that aside from moving house, there wasn't a whole bunch of things going on to use my free time with. So I ended up meeting some friends on the internet and we started a company together building little bits of software. And then unfortunately a friend of mine, Alex Hay, passed away. He created several shortcuts, applications, but when that happened, we did reach out to his parents and we said, "Hey, there were a bunch of people that really love these. Would you like us to take these over?" And so now we also get to maintain those and keep his spirit going as well, which is really nice. So we've got things like Toolbox Pro and Nautomate for the people who want a little bit extra for shortcuts or notion support, which I know a lot of people really love to use notion as part of that task management system and their personal wikis, and so it's really cool to have that.

Andrew J. Mason: I love the idea that you're able to provide this kind of customization for people to be able to say, how is your workflow progressing and what would the best of that world look like if we were able to just connect things together in a way that makes sense for you? That's fabulous. I think that's really cool. Talk to me about your OmniFocus system as well. How has that evolved, developed over the years? We have a new release version of OmniFocus, OmniFocus 4, but as well as just your personal... You mentioned a lot of projects there at the very beginning, how your overall management of that has shifted in time as well.

Rosemary Orchard: So one of the things that I've found over the last few years in particular is I've both gone for more tasks in some areas, especially where I can do things like batch processing and then getting less granular in other areas because it can end up being a little bit overwhelming, opening a project and going, "Oh my God, there's 200 items here." That's kind of the point where you just close OmniFocus and you go, "I'm just going to go eat some chocolate." Right?

Andrew J. Mason: I don't want to look at that anymore. It's gone.

Rosemary Orchard: Exactly. Exactly. So for things where I can do batch processing of things, for example, if I am going to return something that I bought off Amazon, then one of those things would be packaging a parcels and things like that. So I've found that because that also ties in. I've been reselling some clothing on Vinted and all of those things. Packaging of parcels, that's a thing I can batch process. I probably should batch process it. So adding more tasks for things like that has been really helpful because then I can be like, "Right, I have the tape, have the scissors, I have the boxes or the paper or the envelopes. All three of these are in the right place at the right time. The tape and scissors haven't escaped somewhere yet. Let's package these things up and just go through and find a thing that I wanted to package up." And then going to the post office. Well guess what? Posting my grandmother's birthday cards to her also comes in there as well when I'm doing the other things. So I found that the tags have actually allowed me to add more tasks in a way that makes it not overwhelming in particular combined with adding more perspectives for certain things where I know I can just open a tag view or something. But I found that actually giving it a specific name and being like, "No, this perspective is this." And then it batches it by tag, and so it lets me just blitz through and go, "Oh yeah, these are all the things that I need to do." And then as I go off to run errands, I take five parcels with me instead of three parcels and forget the two things, and the birthday card is sitting at home, which has... Definitely.

Andrew J. Mason: It may or may not have happened from time to time.

Rosemary Orchard: It's definitely happened. It's not been the end of the world. Nothing seriously has gone wrong with this, but as my system has evolved, it's become quite clear to me in some cases where I've been overloading myself with the granularity of breaking down what are all of the possible next actions I could be taking on this and putting them in. Well, yes, if there's something in particular I can think of and it sits in my brain, it's coming back, absolutely needs to go on the task management system, but I do not need to break everything down into get out notebook, get out pen, write packing list, don't forget to write underwear on the packing list and things like that. Because I'm going to remember to pack underwear and if I don't, let's be honest, there's shops where I'm going. So it's one of those things, I've built it up over time of going, "No, I don't need that kind of task, but I do need this kind of task." When it comes to packing, for example, I'm going to Brussels tomorrow. So I have a whole bunch of things in my OmniFocus, including a couple of tasks for packing. It's like pack electronics, pack clothing, pack snacks for the train journey and things like that, but actual individual clothing to pack, that isn't in OmniFocus anymore because otherwise I look at the forecast badge in OmniFocus and I'm like, "I'm not getting out of bed today. Thank you very much." Because there's 200 things there, right?

Andrew J. Mason: It's a disappointing red number. It is.

Rosemary Orchard: And it's not that there are 200... I mean there are technically 200 things I need to do, but realistically, when it comes to packing certain things, like my tech kit, I've got all the items written down that I need to pack, but my tech kit is still packed from the last weekend when I did another trip. So I just need to open it, check that the things are in there, close it and stick it back. It's not checking off 20, 30 things. So I found increasing granularity in some areas and massively decreasing it or sharing it out into another application like OmniOutliner or drafts for other areas has been really helpful.

Andrew J. Mason: Talk to me about this because I feel like... And tell me if this is true or not, but it sounds like the granularity is increased when you're thinking about horizontal focus, when you're thinking about how many things can I batch into something and in order to do it more effectively and maybe decreased or I would say even matured in the level of vertical focus when it comes to, "You know what, I've done this 40 times. I can chunk my thinking down. I know what it is." And I always give parents a pass. We've got three kids, and when we were first starting with kid number three, it was like, "I really do need to write down brushing their teeth because if I don't, it won't happen and I don't want to be responsible for tooth decay. So let's put it in there and make sure that it gets done." And now a year in, two years in, three years in, it's like, I'm getting the idea that this thinking has chunked up into a level where there's enough muscle memory. I don't have to write it down. I can think of it on my own. The environment prompts me to do it. Have you noticed that sort of a shift for yourself?

Rosemary Orchard: Yes, definitely. And in particular, actually this was something that sort of came about a bit more with OmniFocus 4, the action groups. Being able to have your action groups toggle them open and close in Outliner or in the outline view of OmniFocus has been really helpful for me. So one big stepping stone towards removing a chunk of the tasks, which I am going to note, they're not entirely gone. A lot of these, if there are a series of things that need to be done, they still live in the notes of the task. Just in case I'm having one of those completely brain-dead days where I'm like, "I've worked, I don't remember. What is my name, who am I, where am I?" So I've still got a reference system for these, but I started by just chunking them into action groups and in particular that complete with last action checkbox, really handy because then you check things off and the little action group or the project just disappears and you're like, "Done. Win. Loving it." So collapsing those action groups to start with. Again, it got a little more granular by batching things into an action group and adding that extra parent task. But then as I realized that, "No, I can check this off without opening this, I can do that consistently." That it's like, "Well, I'm just going to copy those out, might just copy them as task paper and stuck them in a note because that way if I want to stick them back, easy-peasy, lemon squeeze-y." It doesn't take me any time, just copy and paste because that works so well. But it just means that now I have a little less with that because I've built it up over time, and actually OmniFocus has been really helpful for allowing me to do that with those action groups.

Andrew J. Mason: I noticed this, you were talking about the shift as it's happening from the horizontal-vertical thinking and how to encapsulate what levels of thinking do I need to be at where I can just check off the box and have it represent four or five different things, have it be in the notes when I'm in a brain-dead day. Is there anything else that is outside of that that you're currently excited about or experimenting with that is a shift or a change in your workflow? Maybe you don't want to always put it in there, but it's something that you're testing out or an idea that you're looking at and you're like, "This might make its way into my workflow a little bit more regularly."

Rosemary Orchard: So I've actually been really experimenting a lot with OmniOutliner for future project planning because of course OmniOutliner has that great functionality where I can turn something into an OmniFocus project. So for projects in particular where they're not on my roster just yet. I want to think about them, but I know I've got 7,026 projects. That's a random made up number, but I have a lot of projects that are active in my OmniFocus that I know that I am doing or I should be focusing on, and especially I do a lot of home automation things. I really love it and I've been experimenting with it. There's a whole bunch of future ideas. I have a 3D printer, I've got a whole bunch of future project ideas. I love writing those down and putting them into projects, but the reality is I have 28,000 other things that I should be doing first, so I'm not losing them, but I'm putting them into OmniOutliner projects or documents so that I can keep them, I can get nerdy, I can get granular with them, but they're not yet in my task management system. It's kind of like a holding area for them in some ways. But it also means that when I'm ready to go, it's like copy, paste, done or export and import. And that has been working really nicely because it does mean that when I'm there going, "Oh no, actually this project makes much more sense to come first." I can be pull that in and I can even pull things out from OmniFocus and into OmniOutliner if I've got a little bit too eager doing some project planning because that's what happens in my reviews. I'm there going, "Past Rose, I get that you are aspirational, but there's aspirational and then there's over planning and over committing yourself. You need to cut this back." And as much as... It's an action and I could do it, that's great, but I probably shouldn't be doing that right now. So pulling things out and sticking them into OmniOutliner has been a really big thing. What I want to try next is doing a bit more big block planning with OmniPlan because I feel like that could be a lot of fun and really useful to see. So I've kind of planned to have seven different projects happening at the same time and getting all done in those three weeks. Maybe I need to under commit myself a little bit more there and change some priorities and see what I can do. So that's going to be next on my experiment list.

Andrew J. Mason: And a little bit of grace for Past Rose as well because it's like you want to let her kind of run free in order just to see, what are the possibilities here? And because you might not end up with the very best idea unless you've let all of that happen, and then it's playing manager, putting on the manager hat and saying, "You know what, I don't know about all of that. That's a little bit ambitious for where I want to be in terms of my comfortability." I'd love to hear what you would think is a common obstacle that shows up for people when they're first dipping their toes into automation. They love the idea. They see somebody like Sal Seguin or David Sparks or yourself, showing you, here's an automation. This has made things go so much faster. But when they look at shortcuts or they look at AppleScript, maybe they're just feeling a little bit intimidated. They're not sure what to do next. What would you say for somebody that is, "Hey, this is a great first step." If you're looking at this, you don't consider yourself to be a super power user, but you are interested in trying to take advantage of that. What are some good first steps for them?

Rosemary Orchard: I mean, one of the obvious things that I would suggest, I say obvious, it's not obvious to everyone. It's on the Omni Automation site. There is an entire library of scripts that you can download and you can just run those and you don't need to know how to write the script. You don't even know how to read the script. You just need to install it. And then you can use those, and that is just a really great place to start because there's so much work that's already been done out there for everybody. And I feel like that is just something that's really beneficial to give a play with. And then when it comes to maybe graduating from there, or maybe you can't find something that really does what you want, and it doesn't matter how you're planning on going about this. You could be using it or you could be doing AppleScript, you could be doing Omni Automation, you could be doing shortcuts. Find the smallest place where you can start and just build that bit and then do the rest of it manually from there for the time being. Just do a teeny tiny bit. Find these five tasks and then add a tag or something like that. You don't have to add a tag, add a due date and all of these other things, and whatever it is. Just want to find the tasks and add the tag or maybe even share the tasks from OmniFocus to the shortcut to start with. Keep it really small and then build from there. And don't be afraid to duplicate an automation that you've created that's already working and then edit the duplicate and add to it, because then if you mess everything up, you can go back to the previous one as well. So definitely experiment, but start small and steal other people's work because they're sharing it so that you can steal it. So do that.

Andrew J. Mason: That's fantastic advice, and I think it's really accessible for folks to be able to say, "You know what, approach this with a sense of play as well." That would be my take for it. The same anxiety that you feel about project management where it's like this thing is too of a chunk. We've talked about chunking and breaking it down into those actionable steps, that same feeling of, "You know what, we're just having fun with this." Can show up in shortcuts and automation as well, I would say. Talk to me a little bit about anything in this space of AI. I know it's kind of like this huge overarching, and it means so many things to so many different people and a lot of different things to a lot of different people. But does Apple Intelligence or any of the AI agents you just... Even this week as of the recording of this episode, DeepSeek has come out, there's ChatGPT, there's Claude, there's so many things that are out there. Is there anything like that showing up in your workflow or making its way in order to help move things along? Or is it kind of like, "You know what, we're just going to wait and see where this heads first before I even take a look at it?"

Rosemary Orchard: I mean, for a lot of things I found that AI in general is really bad at giving me answers to things. If I say, how do I do this? Then it produces something, maybe it's code or whatever, and then they're going, "But this shortcuts action doesn't exist." This shortcuts action never existed because it's based on a language model and shortcuts names in particular are language-based, so it just kind of infers this and that exists, therefore it creates this other brand new one which doesn't exist, and you go looking for it and it's like, "That's not helpful." But where it has been really useful in particular, I really like the summaries that Apple Intelligence pops up for notifications where I've got five notifications from OmniFocus because I add notifications to certain tasks that I want to be reminded about at certain times. It pops up and it's like, "Hey, OmniFocus is reminding you about this, this, and this. And I'm like, "Aha, cool. I need to do those things. Thanks." And it's one notification, it feels less overwhelming. And also generating lists of things. I'm not at the point where I will trust any AI to generate a list and put it straight into OmniFocus for me. That's not happening. Thank you very much. But I will absolutely ask it to generate a list and use that as my inspiration or my basis and go through and edit that and reformat that and turn that into a task list or a packing list or whatever. And I found a little tool the other day, which I think is really nice, it's called goblin.tools. That's the URL. And it's got this thing called Magic ToDo, so you pop something in, and I added an item earlier because I was experimenting with it where I just said, "Pack for Brussels." And I clicked the little magic wand after I'd added it, and it was like, "Ruby, your travel itinerary and dates, make a list of clothing, gather your toiletries and things like that." And it goes into enough high-level detail that it's a really good starting point. And then there are some other things where I'm there going, "You've missed adding pack passport." Because that is always a separate item on my list and I do not want to get to Customs and Border Patrol and be like, "Yes, so I kind of forgot that bit, but I've got my suitcase, I've got my underwear. Can I go anyway?" They're not going to say yes to that. [inaudible 00:17:40].

Andrew J. Mason: Sorry sir. My AI did not advise me to do this. I apologize.

Rosemary Orchard: Yes.

Andrew J. Mason: Yes.

Rosemary Orchard: Exactly. I always find that they're quite useful for inspiration these things as well. And also sometimes they can be useful for finding alternative resources for things or if I've got something... I like to give projects fun names. So if I'm going to be doing something for a long period of time, I've been going through a bit of a decluttering phase and so on. I was there thinking earlier today, I actually really want a fun project name for this. I don't have a fun project name for it yet. And I was like, "Actually, that's something where I could ask ChatGPT or any kind of AI to give me some fun project names and rework them from there so that then I can create some little icons and stick it on my home screen because I've been playing a lot with focus modes and home screens that are taking me into the right areas of OmniFocus. I think asking you to generate some icons and things for a project is definitely something that I need to do a little more playing with there.

Andrew J. Mason: Well, you mentioned focus modes, and again, I apologize to the listeners who feel like this is kind of a rambling all over the place conversation. I find it fascinating though when you said focus modes and being able to really be able to tunnel into the right spot on your iOS or anything. And forgive me, because this wasn't even on any of the outlines or lists of questions or anything along those lines, but what's your take on contextual computing? I've heard David Sparks mention it, I'm just kind of on the outside peering in to people that are looking at this as a methodology or a way of computing, of being able to tunnel into the right thing that you need to tunnel into in order to maintain your focus and not see 47 other browser tabs open, that rabbit hole. What are your thoughts on that? Is it worth the investment to be able to sit there and link up all the connections? How do you see it playing out right now and are you engaged with that way of computing currently?

Rosemary Orchard: So one of the things I do in particular on macOS is I use a great application by Brett Terpstra called Bunch, which means that if I say, "Hey, I'm going to sit down and record a podcast." I go into it and I click, and if I'm recording a specific podcast, then sometimes I have those saved. Other than that, I have a general guest podcast and what that does, it kind of clears the decks. It doesn't get rid of things, it just hides the things that I don't need and brings the things to the foreground that I do want to need so that those are there. And focus modes on iOS are kind of an extension of that for me, where I have custom home screens and things like that so that if I unlock my phone in podcasting focus mode, I don't see all of my usual things like my mail app and my usual widgets and so on. I see things that are relevant to podcasting specifically, which is generally... It's mostly a blank screen, the tips' widget, if I'm going to be honest because I often share my iPhone home screen while I'm podcasting, particular on iOS Today in the video version. So I don't want all of those things showing up for everybody else, but also I don't want them showing up and distracting me, and this is something I found with focus modes on iOS in particular, having the change of wallpaper, having the change of lock screen widgets and home screen widgets and homescreen pages has been really nice. And in particular, tying it into a different Apple Watch face so that I get... It's kind of a visual cue on my wrist. But also in the right focus mode, I look down at my watch and my watch face is the modular complications face. And one of those, the big one, is OmniFocus because guess what? I probably got a bunch of tasks I need to be doing, so it's quite nice to glance down my wrist and go, "I was grabbing my battery pack to charge it. Don't take that off and go off and grab the next one." So I found contextual computing is really nice. It does take a while to build up, but I'd also say it's not a big bang thing because as with any of these things, it is a project. You've got to build it over time. You can start by sitting down and spending a couple of hours trying to build up all of these things, but I'd also just say start small because you could start with using Bunch or [inaudible 00:21:41] shortcuts or whatever to open a couple of applications. And if you do that, then that is a starting point and you could create a couple of different home screens on your phone or just create one that you use for deep focus, if you want to call it that. I have my classic work one for my day job and I'm podcasting one for my podcasting stuff and so on, and I added those as I need them. I didn't sit down and say, "I'm going to spend my entire day today creating focus modes and Bunch scripts and all of that." Because even if I did that, it's not going to end up with necessarily as good of a result. I find that you have to spend time building this. It's not one big consecutive block because in that consecutive block, you're not really in the right mindset. Instead, I find it easier to sit down 15 minutes extra early before I'm going to record a podcast and make a note of the things that I do so that I can then turn that into the automation or just create the automation for those 15 minutes and see how far I get, and then have a little note somewhere where I can add to, "Oh yeah, this was missing." Or "Actually, it'd be really nice if all my windows put themselves in the right place. I'm going to try using Moom for that or something." And then adding to things over time because it is an evolutionary process. It's not just a, so I sit down and I've decided everything is going to be like this from now on, and it is because life isn't perfect and cleanly cut like that. You have to build things over time, and sometimes yes, you do need to just go, "No, that's it. I'm not doing that anymore. I'm trying to do everything like this." But I think for contextual computing in particular, it is something you need to build over time and you need to play with it to see what works for you. Does using the focus filters built into iOS and macOS work well with OmniFocus for you, or are you better off opening particular perspectives via, say a URL or the new shortcut sections that were recently added and things like that? So you just have to play an experiment and see what works and what doesn't, and maybe you spend half an hour working on this over time and going, "Yes, it doesn't seem to be working for me. It's not particularly helpful. I do the same stuff all the anyway, so what's the point?" That's fine. If that works for you, that's great. I'm jealous to be honest, but for me, I need the application to come in and be like, "And I'm clearing the decks. I'm opening these three windows for you, and that is all you're going to see for the next hour."

Andrew J. Mason: Yes. I so appreciate this, this episode's multifaceted, and I love the theming of iteration that keeps coming up over here. This idea that it doesn't have to be one huge event where you get the system set up or you get the things set up, or you get the idea set up and you spend four hours and you say, "From now on, this is the way it's going to be." I do think there are triggering events. David Allen always uses the example about you run into the fridge and you haven't cleaned it out in the last four months and you see something and it smells like you don't know what it is, and it just disgusts you to the point where you're saying, "I'm going to get control of this fridge now." And doing that behavior is a great thing. It's a great triggering event, but over time, if you don't build in the behavior of throwing away something that's a week old in the refrigerator, then you're going to end up there again to begin with. So let this episode be your triggering event. That's great. Please do. We want that for you. So if you're listening to anything that Rosemary or myself are saying and nodding your head saying, "That sounds like something I want to try out." Try it out. I mean, by all means, give yourself the permission to open it up and either use something that clears the decks, use something that helps you focus more, group your tasks in a new way. I think that's what this is all about, is experimenting in that way.

Rosemary Orchard: Yes. Definitely. When it comes to things like tasks and so on as well, I have an experimental tag in OmniFocus. It's actually called Experimental, and there are new tags under that where basically what I'm doing is I'm adding them and I'm going, "Well, I don't know if this is a good part of my system yet." So I literally missed it under a tag called Experimental, and then I look at it and I add things to it, and then I look at it again in a month or so and go, there's one task in here and that doesn't seem like it's worth having a tag for. And so I get rid of the tag, or there's a lot going on in here. There's a bunch of stuff checked off and a bunch of new stuff that's going to go live in the real system, and it's just kind of a staging area. So experiment and play with these.

Andrew J. Mason: What is it that's inspiring you these days? It doesn't have to necessarily be a productivity thing that's inspiring you, but you come across a quote, a talk, an idea. Just something that crosses your path where, "I don't know necessarily what to do with that yet, but there's something there, and maybe I need to chew on that and process it a bit more, but it's there and I have to figure out really what that means to me." Is there anything that kind of fits that category for you where you're like, "This is inspiring to me?"

Rosemary Orchard: I am a devoted listener of the Cortex podcast. I'm really a fan, which is hosted by Myke Hurley and CGP Grey. At every single episode though, I listen to all that. I find that I have to pause it because I get to a certain point and my brain just goes off on a tangent based on a little throwaway comment that they've made. And I don't know what it is about those two. There's some kind of magic in there. I'm hoping they're using it for good rather than evil because they have so much power there. But every single time I just have to pause it and I'll go away and I'll dump a whole bunch of stuff I've learned, however, dump this stuff into OmniOutliner and then process it later instead of dumping it into my OmniFocus inbox, because otherwise there's a lot to process in my inbox, and it's probably not all going to be actionable tasks in the immediate future. So that is definitely one of those that constantly inspires me and just makes me think. And the other thing is I have found social media is actually quite nice. I've not given up reading productivity books at all. I've been re-listening to... I find audiobooks are easier to get through for me than the actual books that I need to read, be that e-books or physical books, but I found social media and TikTok videos as well, because they're so short. It's one idea. And I go, "Oh, that's interesting. That resonates with me. I'm going to go and experiment with that." And I go and experiment with that and give it a few days and see how it's going and go like, "Ah, yes, yes, this works for me. I like this." Or, "That was an idea and I experimented with it and I didn't like it. Moving on." But because it's one idea at a time, it's a lot easier to be like, "I'm going to take this one idea and fit it into my system instead of taking a book, which is basically, 'Here is a new system, now go use it.'" And that's a lot more daunting. It's a bigger challenge. It requires a massive mental shift, a lot of energy as well. And sometimes that can be physical energy as well as mental energy, because a number of times I've reorganized my office in the last six months on a whim based on something somebody said. Too much work, too much work, but there are no dust bunnies. But it's one of those things where I found just finding something that inspires you is a challenge but the Cortex podcast is definitely one of those for me.

Andrew J. Mason: Rosemary, how can people stay connected with you and what you're up to? I mean, even if anywhere from, "Hey, I want to see where she's appearing on podcasts." Up to, "You know what, this automation thing. I love the idea of it, but I'd rather just have her and her team put something together for us." Where can people connect with you?

Rosemary Orchard: Best place is rosemaryorchard.com. It's got links to apps, books, podcasts, all of those things. Social media is also on there. So yeah, if I know in advance when I'm going to be appearing on a show and I can let people know if they can live stream it or once it appears, I will always share that on social media as well. So plenty of places to find me.

Andrew J. Mason: Rosemary, thank you. So this has been an awesome conversation. I'm so grateful for it. Good luck in Brussels, grateful to have you on the show.

Rosemary Orchard: Thank you very much.

Andrew J. Mason: Hey and thank all of you for listening today too. You can find us on Mastodon at the Omni Show at omnigroup.com. You can also find out everything that's happening with the Omni Group at omnigroup.com/blog.