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April 22, 2024, 6 a.m.
How Jonathan Sorum Uses OmniFocus

In today’s episode of The Omni Show, we interview Jonathan Sorum, head of Google Cloud's Center for Excellence Telco team. Jonathan shares his journey with OmniFocus and how it became an essential tool in managing his demanding and diverse responsibilities across global telecommunications partnerships.

Show Notes:

From his start at Google in Dublin, Ireland, to his current life in Florida, Jonathan discusses the pivotal moments and strategies that have shaped his approach to productivity. This episode is perfect for anyone looking to optimize their workflow and harness OmniFocus in a fast-paced professional environment.

Some other people, places, and things mentioned in this episode:


Andrew J. Mason: You're listening to the Omni Show, where we connect with the amazing community surrounding the Omni Group's award-winning products. My name's Andrew J. Mason, and today we hear how Jonathan Sorum uses OmniFocus. Welcome, everybody, to this episode of the Omni Show. My name is Andrew J. Mason, and like we mentioned during the intro, this is the show where we interview the growing community surrounding Omni Group's award-winning products. There's just a lot of you out there getting really cool stuff done with Omni software, and we're so grateful and excited to get to see all the tips and tricks and just all the interesting ways that everybody's using the software. Today is no different. Today we have Jonathan Sorum with us. He's a founding member at the Center for Excellence team Telco Channel at Google Cloud, and just so happens to use OmniFocus. Jonathan, thank you so much for hanging out with us today.

Jonathan Sorum: Happy that you could have me.

Andrew J. Mason: Absolutely. I'd love to learn more about you, Jonathan. Talk to us about where you find yourself day-to-day, how did you become the head of Telco Center for Excellence at Google Cloud, and maybe a little bit about what the day-to-day looks like for you.

Jonathan Sorum: Great. So, name is Jonathan Sorum. If you catch a little bit of an accent, I'm Swedish. Currently living in Florida. Been with Google for 14 years. Tomorrow actually is my 14-year anniversary at Google.

Andrew J. Mason: Well, hey, happy anniversary.

Jonathan Sorum: Yeah. Some of my colleagues at a team meeting today reminded me that it's tomorrow, 14 years. I've actually been with Google across the globe. I started in Dublin in Ireland, then moved to take on another position in Sydney in Australia. Back to Europe, taking on a role in London, and from there I moved to Sunnyvale, California, where our headquarters is. And then during the pandemic I relocated to Florida. I needed East Coast time zone, but I can basically pick New York, Boston, or Florida, and those cold winters, no, I couldn't deal with that.

Andrew J. Mason: Oh, I get it. Need that vitamin D, and why not Florida?

Jonathan Sorum: Yeah. I'm Swedish, I've had enough of cold winters for a lifetime, so I think I earned getting the Florida weather.

Andrew J. Mason: That's got to be really cool, the whole veritable citizen of the world part. That's very neat. Talk to us too about the day-to-day. How does a typical day break down for you and what do you find yourself doing?

Jonathan Sorum: It's a complicated role because we have telco carriers that are partnering with Google Cloud. Google Cloud, it's the B2B part of Google, so we don't work with the consumers, this is a cloud infrastructure. So businesses hosting their applications with us, or using us for AI or data workloads. And then we have many different kinds of partners, telecommunications companies one of them. So we have partner teams all around the world working and managing things, and think of, let's say, Canada. We have Bell in Canada being a partner. We have Verizon in the US, or Tata in India. So we have teams all around the world, and I'm helping all these teams with strategies in terms of, which partners should we work with? Which of these carriers should we be working with? What kind of solutions should we bring to market with them? How do we make these partnerships successful, et cetera? I work with a lot of different teams, both from our partner team, our sales teams, engineering and product. So sort of like hub-and-spoke, I'm at the center of things, and I work with a lot of different people just to get things going in the way it should.

Andrew J. Mason: I could see the challenge in that, especially when things start really ambiguous so you have these projects that are like, "Okay, it's a concept," and then you're taking it down to the action level and saying, "These are the things that we all need to be doing in order to accomplish that set project." How many people do you end up interacting with day to day during the course of a given week?

Jonathan Sorum: I would say on a slow week, probably 30 to 50 people, and they're in all the different time zones of the world as well. They can be partner teams, they can be engineering, can be anything. One of the reasons why I'm East Coast is because time zone, because I talk to people all around the world.

Andrew J. Mason: Pretty fast-paced role. A lot of collaboration, a lot of communication happening there.

Jonathan Sorum: Yes.

Andrew J. Mason: Well, let me shift gears on you and then maybe we'll bring it all back together here. Talk to me about the first time that you remember being aware of the Omni Group, OmniFocus. Was there an inflection point, like a single point in time, or was it just this growing awareness, like, "Yeah, I know that's a company that... They do certain types of things"?

Jonathan Sorum: There's an interesting question here about if your need gradually increases and you come to a realization that you're either overburdened and you need a system. I was fortunate enough to have what I would call a systems breakdown. I was one year into Google. I was in sales then, and basically my system, or a lack of a system, had everything come to a screeching halt, is how I would describe it. So I needed to reevaluate basically how I did everything. So, just a little bit of context. I was in sales. My sales territory doubled, so all of a sudden the workload got a lot bigger. And then there was this project that came out of left field. So we were going to introduce a sales process, basically how we define a customer opportunity, maturing them from stage to stage, all the definitions and all that. We needed to roll out this for all sellers, and they needed to adapt it to basically different customer segments. They asked me to take it on and I did. That was my first mistake, not knowing what I took on when my workload had probably almost doubled. My workload went up by 300%, so everything just stopped working. And that's kind of the benefit, because it was very quick and was very obvious that I needed to do something. And then I think it took maybe three months, like the quarter ended, and then I tried just white-knuckling it. I didn't have a method. I kept most things in my head, scribbling things down. Didn't really have a system, because up until then in my career, I'd managed just keeping it up here, and then that worked enough, but I came to the point where working harder didn't actually do the job. So it was 60, 80 hour work weeks. You can do that for a time. But this case, it actually didn't help because the workload was just, there wasn't enough hours in the day. And then if you're working in a corporate gig, there are only so many hours of the day that you can work because you're relying on other people. You're limited to the business hours, so you can't just burn the candle at both ends, because if you are in sales, customers aren't working during all hours of the day. So I needed to get more productive, and the first thing I did was I picked up the book by David Allen, Getting Things Done, and that just showed me, okay, you need some sort of a process behind it, how you process everything that comes at you from different directions. I dug out some of the books that have been useful for me, and Getting Things Done, this one set me on the right path. Once I read that, okay, I had the philosophy, I had the method, but then I needed, what would be a tool that works with the GTD methodology? I was on a Mac at that time, and when you did a search online, the consensus was really, it's like, it's OmniFocus. That is the gold standard. And strangely enough, 13 years later, it still is.

Andrew J. Mason: That's a really unique and I think helpful way to look at that, seeing this as a gift. The moment where you hit the brick wall and your workload triples and it's the feeling of crisis, to look in retrospect and say, "Actually, that was a huge gift, because if I were the pot, the frog in the pot boiling slowly over time, I would've just slowly added to my workload and not noticed that I was getting more and more stressed out." That's a really interesting and I think healthy way to look at that. Talk to somebody who maybe is the frog in the pot, versus hitting the brick wall where they do have more to do than they could ever take on. Working harder isn't the answer here, but maybe they haven't necessarily came to that urgent point of stress just yet. What advice would you have for that person?

Jonathan Sorum: Yeah, I would agree that hitting the brick wall was the best thing that could have happened to me, because the slow burn is so dangerous because you don't notice it. Let's say your workload, it just increases 20% in a couple of months. That becomes your new normal, and that's what you start feeling comfortable with, or you're telling yourself, "This is my comfort level." And then it starts adding onto it. And then this is how people can get themselves into a situation where a few years down the line they're completely burned out and they don't know why, because it's been so gradual and they never had a reason to really assess the work they put on and the stress they put on their entire system. So I think if you're able to see warning signs early... and for me, I was just lucky that it was undeniable. That allowed me to just say, "Stop. Let's reassess." I think for anyone who's in a situation like this where they feel that, okay, my ability to produce outcomes is being stressed, it can be a couple of different things. It can either be that just the workload is too much, but it can also be that you are not as productive as you could be. In terms of that, the second part, being as productive as you could be, the first thing I would say to look at is, you're doing a habit change here, so you have to start small. Overturning everything that you do in your professional and personal life and how you do things, if you overhaul everything at once, it's likely not going to stick. So if you read books like Charles Duhigg's book on the habits, or Atomic Habits, which is a super popular book, I think the consistent theme there is make one change, make sure it sticks, then you can move on to something next. I would say anyone who's finding themselves in a similar situation, find something that you can change, evaluate after a couple of weeks, or maybe a month or two, am I sticking to it? Then do some more. But in terms of practically how I would go about it, if you don't have a system or a process or a way to handle things coming at you and then figuring out what to do with it, because there needs to be an input/output kind of workflow for you to be able to manage your professional and personal life. So if you haven't picked up a book... There are many books about it. I think David Allen's Getting Things Done is a very good starting point, because it makes you think about all your responsibilities and everything that you do in almost like a factory manner, like things coming at you from different directions and then you figure out where does this go? Do I do it? Do I delegate it? Do I defer to a later point in time, or do I not do it at all? Do I skip it? Getting the theory, I think, is very good, because that allows you to start thinking a different way. So before you actually start picking up tools, think about how you're going to be using it.

Andrew J. Mason: Such good advice, Jonathan. I think about the widget factory turning it all into informational inputs and outputs and just giving your frontal lobe that space to make a decision without the emotions, the story of the moment, the story of the workload really driving us out of control and keeping us from thinking clearly. I think that input/output, to coin the term widgetization of it all, is a super helpful way to look at that. Talk to us more specifically about your system and how that looks. The inputs for you that come into OmniFocus, are they from just swirling around the demands of the moment? Are they coming in from other software? And then the output, does it go into other software, or is that where tasks get executed upon?

Jonathan Sorum: Yeah, so where does OmniFocus... It's so hard because I've been using it for 12, 13 years now, so it's such a big part of me that when I start thinking about, okay, how do I actually use it? It's almost like an extension of me. I was thinking about, what is the shortcut to bring up the quick capture? Because that's one of the first things I think about, like one of the benefits. Quick capture, like getting it out of your head and into a trusted system. I can't even remember what the actual keyboard combination is. I just know that my fingers go like this. I don't know which actual keys I'm pressing because it's such a muscle memory. But if I'm going to unpack how it actually works for me, my productivity system is basically, it's OmniFocus to start directing everything. Anything that comes into my head, it usually goes into OmniFocus, if it's task related. But I complement that with something. For note-taking there's millions of options, and I don't really stick with one for too long. So for work stuff, since I work at Google, we use Google Drive and Google Docs, spreadsheets, et cetera. A lot of that information goes in there for notes. In my personal life, Obsidian Apple Notes. I'm actually trying Evernote again, but that's for facts and reference material. When it's task related, everything goes into OmniFocus. That is the core hub. So when I'm at the computer, it's a keyboard shortcut. Usually it's a quick capture, because you and I can be talking about something and something might pop into my head, and I'm able to quickly capture without actually losing train of thought because it's quick and intuitive. And then on your phone or in a tablet, it's usually using the voice to capture a reminder, and you use the OmniFocus integration with iOS and iPadOS, funnel that into OmniFocus. So that's a core in terms of directing traffic, so to speak. I complement that with just very, very analog time blocking. A very good book is Deep Work by Cal Newport. That one I can highly recommend. That would be a very good compliment to David Allen's book on how to think. It might be a little bit off-topic, but those work really well together. Because your brain is like a radar, and then something comes on your radar, and if you can't address it right there and then and close a loop... It needs to go somewhere, because that open loop is going to sit somewhere in your brain, and it's unfair because our brains aren't very good at storing information like facts, numbers, when things are due. Our brains aren't really good at that. Our brains are really good at making connections, analyzing, and problem solving. When you notice something, okay, this is something that I need to do, if you don't address it and close that loop in one way, writing it down in a system that you trust is that best way, unless you can fix it right there and then, because if you don't address it, that open loop is going to be somewhere. You might not be conscious about it, but it's going to be somewhere in your brain. You're treating your brain unfairly, like a poor friend. It's like, "Here, hold this vague obligation I haven't really thought through. Just hold on for that for an undetermined amount of time and see what that does to our collective stress level."

Andrew J. Mason: That's such a good way to look at it. I never think about the self-care angle of it. If you were to treat your best friend in the way that you treat yourself in terms of the commitments we take on, "Here, hold this for an indeterminate amount of time, this weighty commitment, and I'm not sure how long it'll be, but here you go," we would not say that that's a kind behavior, I think. And then also to speak to what you were saying earlier about preserving this state of flow, almost like the piano player, you forget about the keys, you forget about the notes, and then it just becomes this form of self-expression. I forget what the keyboard shortcut... I think I've customized it for me, for Quick Entry is Control + Space Bar, so I left out the command. You don't think about those things. When you're in that state of flow you're just thinking, I need to park a thought here for just a second. It becomes the parking lot for it, and you're able to stay in that spot where you're able to keep thinking about what it is that you're already committed to and keep your focus in that space. It's a great way to go about it. For you, Jonathan, where do you think that that passion, that desire to be as productive as you possibly can comes from? You're given an opportunity all those years ago where it's just like, "Hey, do you want to increase your workload by 300%?" And granted, you didn't know the exact scope of what it is, but there's something inside of you that's like, you know what? Let's just push the boundaries and see what I'm capable of. Not everybody, I think, feels that way where it's like, let's see what my potential actually is and let's bump up against those edges, and then we'll find out what it is I'm actually capable of. I think people that are productive have this push in that direction, and I'm always interested about what it is that drives them there. So for you, speak to that space a little bit for us.

Jonathan Sorum: It's a very good and it's a difficult question because, first of all, I think about it in the sense of, you have to treat the future you with kindness, because what you're basically doing, you're taking on a lot of things that you don't have to deal with right now, but, you, tomorrow or a week from now, you're going to have to deal with this. So every year I try different... I try switching from OmniFocus to another task manager, and I've tried most of them. It usually lasts one... two weeks is probably my limit, and then I just get so fed up because it gets so noisy. There's just too much. You can't streamline things to what's only relevant for you right now. No, you get to see everything. I think that's one of the true powers of OmniFocus in this sense, is that you're able to only present to yourself what you need to worry about right now, and then next week it's going to be other stuff that you have decided, this is actually for this period in time. You can also give yourself all the context that you need. I think it used to be called context, now they're tags. But I think that it's very important because you're giving yourself the context, the surrounding details, so that future you is not going to have all the details ready in near term memory. That's what you have to think about. Future you is kind of like a different person that has less context and remembers much, much less about the thing, whatever that thing is, versus you do. If I'm looking at why I think it's so important, first of all, it allows you to relax, because you have something that you can trust. I don't have to keep it in my head at all times. There is a system that I can always trust. It's not going to get lost there. There are some psychological reasons why you need trust in not just a system, but something that you actually trust as much as yourself. First of all, your stress level goes down because your brain is like, "No, no, no." We have this vague sense of stress or that we're behind on something. What that something is we're not really sure of, but let's feel some stress. Let's increase our cortisol levels so we just feel this overall 24/7 stress level. That's the first thing that happens when you start putting it into a system that you can trust. I also love the fact that you can tunnel vision when need to. Like, when I need to only look at work stuff, I only look at work stuff. I can switch gears and put on the different hat. Okay, now I'm just looking at personal stuff, things like that. So your focus gets better. So as you're not constantly thinking about things that you might be behind on, you can actually become a little bit more creative and go a little bit more at depth into the things you're actually doing. I think that's one of the biggest benefits I've noticed many years after starting this journey.

Andrew J. Mason: That's a great answer. That's a really good answer. It's a little bit nuancey for me, but the context switching of being kind to your future self and say, "Okay, if I don't have to carry the extra weight of thinking about what that commitment is and I know the reminder's going to come around at the appropriate time, and I'm able to fully focus myself on the flow of the moment, what am I capable of doing?" And I think pushing against those edges is a healthy thing. Not from the standpoint that you want to work yourself into the ground, life isn't all about work all the time, but there is kind of this Maslow hierarchy thing where it's like, "If I can, then I must. I want to see what it is I'm capable of doing, and I don't want to die with the music still inside of me." So coming at it from that angle, it feels like a really good and noble thing to do. In that spirit though, now, Jonathan, let's talk about automation. What do you do, if anything, in the realm of automation as simple as just the repeating task, as complex as Omni Automation with JavaScript and just really rounding the traffic of the information flow? But I know that there's a slice of you that's like, "You know what? There's repeated thinking here. I don't want to have to do that thinking twice, so let's see how I can capitalize on automation here."

Jonathan Sorum: Once you get the hang of it, and OmniFocus, the learning curve can be a bit steep if you look at everything it can do. I think where people get hung up on the most, perspectives, and then sequential projects, which is one of the strengths, but also, you got to be really careful about how you do that because it's not going to show you something until item number one is done. So think through that. And also being able to defer. So those three things, being able to defer, having the sequential projects, the last two, I think, once you've got the hang of them, actually, perspectives are going to make a lot more sense. But once you master that, building perspectives is such a huge benefit because that's where really you can switch hats. Switching hats is very useful because we have so many different roles both professionally and personally. So think about at work everyone probably has five, six different roles within your work role, so you are able to switch those and, "Okay, I'm only looking at the admin stuff now that I need to do, the less fun stuff," but there's a perspective only for that. Also, in your personal life, like I'm a father, so there's a parenting perspective that you can create. And then you have all these different roles that you have as a human being and it can reflect that. I think that's hugely important in terms of automation, like letting you make that context switch very easily and tunnel into whatever it is that you're supposed to be doing, so you're not always reactive. Because the problem is, even with a good tool, you can be a bit on the reactive side, because everything is there and you might not have much structure into how you approach it. But, if you're able to actually use perspectives as a way to take on the manager role of yourself, see yourself as a manager versus a doer, you can use analogy like an officer versus a soldier. There's one role where you're actually looking at, okay, what are the objectives, the bigger picture, and directing the work. And the other part is, we're just doing it now. So perspectives allow you to think about that. Also, weekly planning goes into that, having a checklist. Because checklist is my number two. Perspectives is the number one, and checklist, it's number two. Actually, I don't know if I have it around. Yeah. This is actually a very good book on that topic. This one, The Checklist Manifesto, very good. I can highly recommend that. Anyone who's worked with OmniFocus for, say, more than a year, will start discovering some of these things on their own. Checklists, they run my life, so I probably have nine or so repeating checklists. I have a weekly one for my weekly planning, either on Sunday or Monday, and that's the fail-safe. So you have a plan for what's going to happen through the week, and then reality comes and there's always a collision point. And sure, not everything is going to get done. That's the nature of the universe. It doesn't care much for your planning, but at least if you have that weekly review, have that weekly checklist, you know that things are never going to fall behind more than a couple of days, a week at most. So that's probably the most important one, because with something like OmniFocus your day-to-day life can become very easy to manage, but some things might slip through the cracks because you get things coming out of left field that you hadn't planned for. So weekly checklist. Have daily checklist as well. Every morning, 10, 15 minutes. I put on the manager hat for myself, and then I go through that checklist, and then I basically block out the time I need to get that done during the day. Then I switch on to the doer mode. That gives you a bit more agency and control if you're thinking about all your responsibilities in that sense, like, I'm the manager, I'm the doer. Now you have to be both.

Andrew J. Mason: It's a really helpful way to look at this, this idea of, I want to build part of the sandbox that I want to play in, creating these contexts and being wise about architecting that space before you operate within that space. And there's a bit of a mental hack there, I have to admit, where it's like, what would a good father do? What would a good manager do? And then answering that question and using that to architect the kind of behavior that you want to see happen. Any other thoughts in that space for you?

Jonathan Sorum: I think an underlying message, what I'm hearing from you here is, you can succeed and have a high batting average on your day-to-day life, but if there's no fail-safe, sooner or later you're going to fall behind on things that you've actually decided previously that was important to you. But so many things have come up out of left field at work where there's often a fire drill or two, metaphorically, where, drop everything because there's some situation that has to be dealt with. So even if you're getting 90% of everything you're supposed to be doing done on a day-to-day basis, you're leaving some behind, and sooner or later that's going to accumulate. You have to take stock every week, every other week, I would say, and then just make sure it's like, "Okay, is there something important that we're falling behind on?" And like, "Okay, how can we reprioritize? Because we don't just want to be reactive."

Andrew J. Mason: I think coming in that spirit of intentionality, saying, "I don't want to just be reactive," is there anything that shows up for you in this space of, maybe not a regret, but just this thought of, man, if I had this part to do over again in how I architected my life, my system, the tasks that I took on, how we went about that? And maybe it can be instructive for those that are a couple of miles behind you on their journey in their career to say, "You know what? If you're going to do it, maybe think about skipping this part in doing it in the way that I did it, and think about doing it differently."

Jonathan Sorum: Two things come to mind. First one is, entropy is going to set in. So even if you have the best tools available, at some point there's going to be a bit of bloat, and every once in a while it's like you just start collecting things that you say that you're going to do, but it's more like nice to have. And you start looking at the list of stuff, like I have OmniFocus on my other screen here so I can see it, and it's like, yeah, it's growing a bit and there's a lot that are aspirational at best there. It's like, you got to do some spring-cleaning from time to time and make sure it's like, are these things I'm actually going to do? So first of all, entropy is going to set in. Chaos will set in if you don't manage it. But once you become adept at handling the workflow, I think that you're going to be so much more productive. Like, if you just measure your output in a given timeframe, your productivity in an hour is going to be so much greater. I think the biggest benefit that I would've... I would've gone back to my younger self and said, "Scope things to a much greater degree than you think that you need to." Especially when someone comes to you and says, "Well, there's something that we need to work on. Can you help out here?" It's like, don't agree to any project or anything until you've had at least a chance to look at it. I usually, and this is my nature, I usually said, "Sure, of course. It needs to get done." Who am I to say that I'm not going to help out? But take a look at it first to see what it is and see what are the unknowns. It's like, "Okay, when is this due? What is it that's going to be delivered? Are there any resources? Are there other people that are going to be involved that are going to help out, or is it just me?" Before you say yes, just take a look at it, and then have a conversation with the other person just to see, "Okay, just so we're level setting on what is it that we're supposed to be doing here." I should have done that. That saves you a lot, because it could be your manager, it could be someone else. They have expectation that this project or this thing, whatever it is, is this big, and you're seeing it like, oh, this is a minor thing. I can knock this one out in a day or two. And sure enough, you're going to find out that you're not meeting expectations when you actually start showing someone else what it is that you've done. So, scoping things. And you don't have to be a jerk about it. It's like, "No, I'm not committing to anything before you tell me exactly what's the budget, what's the timeline?" No, basically like, "Hey, let me take a look at it so that we're on the same page of what we're supposed to be doing here." I did not do that earlier in my career. I didn't do that enough, so I would overcommit. And once you and the other person, or if it's another team, actually look at, "Okay, this is how much work is involved. This is the level of quality of the deliverable," then you can actually say, "Oh, well, there's some other responsibilities that I have. What are we going to do with them?" In my example of where things came to a screeching halt 10 plus years ago, what I should have done was basically say, "Sure, I can take on this project because it needs to be launched. There's a deadline it needs to be launched," but I should have been taken off sales target for a quarter, like defocus from sales. That's what I should have done, but I didn't, and that's why I ended up in the situation that I was. And sometimes you need to just get help. If you're in a professional setting and there's something that is going to be a big thing and it might actually impact what you're already committed to doing, talk with your manager. And if it's another team, have your manager talk to the other team. Let them figure it out, because in some sense, it's a zero-sum game, because you are singular. There's only one of you and there's only so many hours in the day. That's what I would tell my younger self.

Andrew J. Mason: Jonathan, two things I've really pulled out of this conversation I'm really grateful for that have showed up for us. Number one is your value for accurate thinking. The clarity that shows up when you say, "Hey, there are facts here somewhere, and if I pursue them I'll get the clarity that comes with them." And then number two in that same idea, that same vein of clarity, is this desire to be true about your estimation of what it is you're capable of, because I don't want to overcommit just to people-please. I don't want to just say yes to all the things and then wonder why there's this low level angst following me around everywhere because I realize in the back of my head that I can't possibly do all the things.

Jonathan Sorum: Yeah. There are so many variables that could change the entire scope. Like, "Okay, if it's not a one day, it's actually a seven-day project, can we bring someone else in, or can we de-scope?" It's like, "Hey, can we deliver something small now? Is that possible? And then we do a bigger chunk later?" There are so many variables, but I think it's just important... I think what you're touching upon is our reluctance to have a slightly uncomfortable conversation now. We prioritize not having that, but the future conversation is going to be really uncomfortable because you're missing deadline or you're missing target, and that's a very uncomfortable conversation. But we'd rather have that future horrible conversation, because at least it's not now, right?

Andrew J. Mason: That's right. That's right. Honestly, the people-pleasing slice of me is sitting there nodding his head like, yeah, of course, at least it's not now. No, you're absolutely right about that, and I think that's one of the major values of these task management systems, is the ability to look at it all out in front of us, have all the puzzle pieces put out in front of us and say, "Okay, I think when I put this thing together there might be more tasks than there is time in the day," and it helps us navigate those relationships in that way. It's a pursuit of a desire for integrity. I think that's a great thing. Jonathan, I love this conversation. I feel like I could keep going for hours, and I know we don't have that, but if people are interested in just connecting with you, finding out more about what you're up to, what's a great way that they can do that?

Jonathan Sorum: There are a couple of different ways. On Twitter... I'm not calling it what Elon wants us to call it. It's not going to happen. I'm @sorum, so S-O-R-U-M. I don't post much, but my DMs are open. LinkedIn, you'll find me Jonathan Sorum there. My user handle is jsorum. You can reach me there. Reddit, my username is jsorum. DMs are open there too. So Twitter, Sorum, LinkedIn and Reddit is jsorum. That's the easiest way to get to me.

Andrew J. Mason: Jonathan, thank you so much for spending your time with us. Do not take it lightly. Know it's going to be very, very valuable for people that listen and also value that level of accurate thinking and just thinking through, what does it mean to make a commitment? It's really valuable.

Jonathan Sorum: Really is. Yeah.

Andrew J. Mason: Thank you, Jonathan.

Jonathan Sorum: Thank you.

Andrew J. Mason: Hey, and thank all of you for listening today too. You can find us on Mastodon, You can also find out everything that's happening with the Omni Group at