THE OMNI SHOW

Get to know the people and stories behind Omni’s award-winning productivity apps for Mac and iOS.

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23
Sept. 5, 2018, 6 a.m.
Grayson West, Design Manager

Grayson West — who just might be a superhero (you can tell by the name) — manages design, the website, and marketing at Omni from his headquarters on the fourth floor, high above Lake Union.

Show Notes:

Grayson started as a graphic designer at Omni 15 years ago and moved into management four years ago. In his youth he was an international bicycle racer, and lately he’s become a CrossFit trainer and kiteboarder.

And — most importantly! — he’s a cat person.

Some other people, places, and things mentioned:

Transcript:

Brent Simmons: You're listening to The Omni Show. Get to know the people and stories behind The Omni Group's award winning productivity apps for Mac and iOS. Music!

[MUSIC PLAYS]

Brent: I'm your host, Brent Simmons. In the studio with me today is Grayson West, Design Manager at The Omni Group. He is also my boss. This very podcast exists because Grayson thought it would be a good idea. Say hello, Grayson.

Grayson West: Hello, Grayson.

Brent: The question on everybody's mind is, are you a superhero?

Grayson: No, but I have had that comment so many times during my life.

Brent: I mean, Grayson, right? That's like Dick Grayson, and West, Adam West, right?

Grayson: There's actually a story with my name. My mother was giving birth to me, and my father was in the waiting room, and he was full blooded Cherokee Indian. He had these children's books that were going to be mine, and there was a name in there, Grayson. It meant like gray wolf in the story. He's like, "We should call my son Grayson." That's how I got the name.

Brent: Wow. Now I want to call you Gray Wolf West.

Grayson: I wouldn't mind. That's pretty good.

Brent: It is pretty good. Yeah. The gray part, that's not a reference to your advanced age or anything.

Grayson: No. I mean, you're starting to see it in the beard, but my hair hasn't gone yet. I'm pretty happy about that.

Brent: Yeah, you're a few years younger than me. Not a ton. A little bit.

Grayson: I don't know. I'm up there.

Brent: 1968 for me.

Grayson: Okay. You've got three years on me.

Brent: Yeah. What do you do at Omni?

Grayson: I'm the design manager, and I manage the user experience team, the marketing team, and the website team. There's quite a bit of overlap between the marketing team and the website team, but they, at times, feel like three distinct teams, but at times they feel like two.

Brent: Okay. That's quite a few areas of responsibility, though. Juggling is, I imagine, a lot of your-

Grayson: It's a big part of the job.

Brent: ... a lot of that you have to do.

Grayson: It's taken some time to do it in an efficient manner. I don't think I'm doing it efficiently every day, but I'm getting better at it. There's just a lot of things to keep track of. You know, as far as user experience, I need to keep track of what's going on with product development, what are engineers working on, what are testers working on, what my team is working on, on the website and marketing. Need to know and be informed about what the progress is of development for the website, what kind of progress are we making on milestones. Marketing, need to pay attention to the Mac and iOS ecosystem and what's going on there, on social media and other Mac outlets out there on the web. Pay attention to advertising, PR. There's a lot.

Brent: How large is the team, all told?

Grayson: Right now? One, two, three ... Eight.

Brent: Eight?

Grayson: Yeah, eight. Roughly eight.

Brent: Which is bigger than a lot of small, indie iOS and Mac development shops, indeed.

Grayson: Yeah, definitely.

Brent: See, when I worked at Userland Software, I think we were like seven at our largest? Yeah, so it's like running a small software company.

Grayson: It is, yeah.

Brent: Yet at the same time, you need to know everything else that's going on in the company, like what's the current status for OmniGraffle for iOS and everything, right?

Grayson: Totally. I go to every product meeting. At one point someone mentioned that I go to the most meetings here.

Brent: I believe it. Yeah.

Grayson: I don't know if that's still true, but it feels like it some weeks.

Brent: Yeah. You and maybe Ken.

Grayson: Definitely.

Brent: Yeah, no kidding. That's an awful lot to keep track of. Is your job a lot of kind of sending people to on the right path, or getting the resources that they need, or encouraging their work?

Grayson: All of the above. I think sending people down the right path is a part of it, but I think a bigger part is creating an environment or a stage for them to be successful. One thing I don't like to do is micromanage, because I've been micromanaged in the past. I mean, hopefully you will attest that I don't micromanage.

Brent: Yeah. You do not.

Grayson: I like the people on my team to find solutions on their own, without a lot of prodding. I want them to have that freedom to be creative. Yeah, it's all of the above. I mean, making sure that they're getting everything they need. Making sure that they feel open to coming and talking to me. Checking in with them. Having one-on-ones with them.

Brent: When I first moved over from engineering to marketing, one of the first things I noticed that you did, that I really liked, was ... We had done a newsletter. It was the first newsletter I had written, and then designers and producers made it look good and sent it out. And it was good. It was all right, but it could've been a lot better. After the fact, and you guys said, "Okay, guys. We can kick this up a notch." I don't know if those were your exact words. Something like that.

Grayson: I think my exact words was, "We could do a lot better."

Brent: Maybe that was it. Yeah, right. That was great. Nobody felt bad. Everybody felt encouraged, and then the very next one was a whole lot better.

Grayson: A whole lot better. I'm very proud of my team. Selfishly, I think I have the best team in the company.

Brent: Oh, you do. Obviously. Yeah, no question.

Grayson: I was very proud of how everyone responded to that feedback. No one got their feelings hurt, and we did improve it. We're constantly improving that content. That's one thing I love about digital design versus print, where I came from, is we can make those changes. Like, "Oh, okay. This didn't work out how we wanted it to. Let's make a change." It's no big deal.

Brent: One of your jobs is really creative director, it sounds like. I guess that's kind of an old “mad men” term, maybe.

Grayson: Yeah, it definitely is. Coming from the print world, I feel like a lot of what I do is creative direction. I think, when I first got into design, that was kind of the goal, but I think that was every designer's goal coming out of art school. Like, "Well, what do you want to do?" Eventually, "Oh, I want to be a creative director." Sort of reached that point? I didn't envision it to be software. Yeah, I really enjoy creative direction. I love working with creatives. I'm a creative person myself, even though I'm a bit of an introvert.

Brent: Those two things often go together, really.

Grayson: Yeah. My mother and father were creatives, and my dad was a working artist. He was a sculptor. My mom ran a community theater for a number of years. I pretty much grew up in the theater.

Brent: Oh, wow.

Grayson: Yeah, spent my evenings doing homework in theater seats.

Brent: At the theater, yeah.

Grayson: I acted a little bit, just because my mom did it, and I was there. It was fun.

Brent: Sure. That's cool. What's it like in the, I guess the wider world of Omni? Are design considerations and discussions limited really to the design group, or does more of the company take part in these kind of talks?

Grayson: Oh, the latter. The company really takes part in it. I think that's one special thing about Omni's culture, is everyone here has an opportunity to participate and give feedback. I say that to friends who work in this field, and they don't quite buy it, but it's true here. Anyone from Ken down to someone in support can come to meetings, and contribute, and voice their ideas. I think that's really special, it's really unique. Especially coming from the publishing world, which that does not happen.

Brent: Yeah, I'm sure. One thing I've noticed and really like, is especially with the support people, hearing their voices about design decisions, because they're very close to the users, obviously, and they have a good sense of what would work, and what would be confusing. On occasion, I've heard somebody say, "If we do this, it will be a support nightmare." Then they talk us through it, and it's like, "Yeah, okay. Yeah, that's true. You're right."

Grayson: I totally agree. I've always considered our support team to be the front line with our users. They have the capacity to get so much insight from our users, especially since we have phone support, so they really get to talk to our users, and really hear how frustrated or how happy they are. I think that's really special. I think as someone who oversees the UX team, we're really lucky to get that kind of insight.

Brent: Omni, I would say, has a history of great design. We've won several Apple Design Awards in the past, and obviously winning awards isn't our goal. Our goal is to make software that people love, and that they get their work done with, but I wonder how much just history of doing great design here, does that put any pressure on you? Is it a thing you think about?

Grayson: There's definitely pressure there, although I think the way I'm wired, I put a lot of that pressure on myself. I do think about it. Like you said, while I think about it, and while I think other people on the team think about it, it's not our driving motivation when developing software. Awards would be great, recognition's great, but at the end of the day, we need to be making the best software we can for our users. While it would be great to see our name announced on that day — that it doesn't happen, I don't think about it a whole lot. I might get a tiny bit bummed about it, because I'd love one of those cubes to be out in the front lobby, but I think ...

Taking OmniFocus for iOS for example. I think we did some really great design work, and while it wasn't the revolution everyone was sort of climbing for, it was a great evolution, and I think we improved the product in a number of ways that are really beneficial to a large swath of people.

Brent: Yeah, I think so, too. I especially love the three pane view that we have working now. That just helps me so much as I'm using it. It's great.

Grayson: Yeah, and especially on an iPad. I think that's such a huge improvement, in my opinion. I think it's one of the few apps that was really thinking about the iPad in terms of being productive on it. I think you're seeing more and more apps thinking about that.

Brent: Yeah, because the iPad really is the productivity iOS device.

Grayson: Yeah, I agree.

Brent: It does seem to have been neglected. I don't know if that's the right word, and maybe not even neglected by Apple, but by developers a little bit. I love that we take the iPad super seriously.

Grayson: And to sort of piggyback on that comment, that's why I was so excited with the redesign in the App Store, because there was just a massive discovery issue going on there, and I think now that they've split games and apps into their own separate tabs, I think that's going to give Apple an opportunity to be highlighting products like ours and other products that are really taking advantage of the platform well. So I'm excited for the future.

Brent: And we did ... OmniFocus3 for iOS was featured, I forget, a month ago or something, but that was ...

Grayson: I danced a little jig.

Brent: I felt super good about that.

Grayson: I was pretty happy about that.

Brent: It was a good day. What'd you do before Omni? Did you have some other jobs or you come straight here from school, or ... ?

Grayson: I've had a lot of different jobs. I was a wild land firefighter for a couple of seasons. I've worked in warehouses. I've slung coffee. I worked in a bike shop. I was a bike shop mechanic for a while. What else have I done? I mean there's been a lot of various little jobs. Worked in a theater. So, yeah, I've done quite a few things before I came to Omni and before I went to school.

Brent: Where did you go to school?

Grayson: I went to college at Savannah College of Art and Design and also Northern Arizona University.

Brent: Savannah, Georgia?

Grayson: Savannah, Georgia, yeah, which was a kid from coastal Oregon who'd never been on the East Coast. That was my first ...

Brent: That was a change.

Grayson: Yeah, that was a change.

Brent: What'd you study there? Design, obviously, I guess.

Grayson: Well, what happens in the first year there is you go through what they call foundations, and the whole first year is basically you're getting a foundation in a bunch of different sort of disciplines and arts, from design to drawing to painting, color theory — which was, color theory was probably my favorite class at the time. But my major was photography at that time, and actually I had gotten a scholarship to go to SCAD for photography, and I really enjoyed it.

But as I was progressing through the program, I started to realize how much student debt I was going to have, even with the scholarship, and so I started thinking about other things. And right before I went to SCAD, I was introduced to Adobe Illustrator, and that really blew my mind because I at that point I didn't even realize you could draw on a computer like that without kind of control, and get that kind of output digitally for print.

That was sort of a side hobby of just messing around, designing, illustrating. Then once I came to the realization of how much debt I was going to have, I was like, "Okay, maybe I need to think about other things," and so I took this Intro to Motion Graphics and that just completely turned me on because I was able to bring that digital drawing and then make it move. I was really excited. SCAD had a really great program at that time.

Brent: And this was early days in motion graphics still, yeah.

Grayson: After Effects 3, maybe? So I decided to change majors. Then I met my wife and she came down to Savannah, got a job at a TV station. But she wasn't really digging Savannah, and I think at that time I was kind of ready for a change. I read about the Northern Arizona University’s motion graphics program, contacted the instructor there and I kind of connected with him and so I transferred, moved to Flagstaff, Arizona.

Brent: That's another big change, not like Oregon.

Grayson: Not like Oregon. 7,500 feet.

Brent: Wow.

Grayson: Yeah. And finished up there. That's when I got into publishing while I was going ... I needed to work while I was in college and so I ended up working full time and going to school full time, which was crazy. That's when I got into publishing. I got in with a small little local magazine, but then we got bought by Gannet and that ...

Brent: They owned everything.

Grayson: Yeah. That opened up sort of opportunities with larger magazines, larger dailies, and so I did a lot of design there. Once I graduated the question came up, "Well, what am I going to do? Do we want to stay in Flagstaff?" I had always wanted to come back to the Pacific Northwest because I grew up in Oregon. And so my wife and I just decided to move to Seattle — drop everything in Flagstaff, move to Seattle without any jobs or any opportunities. And we did it. Then about six months later I saw this Craigslist ad for ...

Brent: Craigslist ad?

Grayson: Yeah.

Brent: Yeah, you're not the first person to have noticed a Craigslist ad for Omni. I don't think we advertise that way anymore but ...

Grayson: No. And then I got an interview, which was intimidating.

Brent: Let me guess. Was it Andrew?

Grayson: Yeah, it was Andrew.

Brent: Andrew, if you're listening, we love you.

Grayson: He's actually on my team now, which is an odd twist. But yeah, he was like, I think you said earlier, he was like the sphinx, he was no emotion, just hard questions, and I remember ...

Brent: He has a way of turning on his Vulcan side that just ...

Grayson: And it was kind of intimidating because I think there was eight people on my panel. Thankfully there was another employee on the panel, who's no longer here. I think he's at Apple now, Scott Maier. He was kind of throwing me lifelines, asking me like real specific design questions, and so he kind of gave me that outlet. I wasn't sure. I thought the interview went well, but I wasn't sure. But I got the call, got the job and I become Omni's graphic designer. And that was in 2003.

Brent: So you've been here 15 years.

Grayson: 15 years.

Brent: Wow. You started off as a graphic designer. What kind of design were you doing at first? Was it website design, or was it like icons, or ... ?

Grayson: Yeah, it was website, any marketing material that went out, the Macworld booths which I loved doing, because they were gigantic and to be able to design on that scale is really fun.

Brent: I'm sure I went to a number of Macworld booths designed by you. I remember getting a demo of OmniGraphSketcher at one of them, possibly from Dave. Yeah, anyway.

Grayson: I remember being at the Macworld where the iPhone was announced, and the buzz on the floor that year was special. And then when they opened up the black curtains and there it was spinning in its glass case.

Brent: I remember looking at it and thinking, "Okay, there's the one that we all can't touch but in, whatever, six months, everyone in this room is going to have one in their pocket," and sure enough.

Grayson: Then I was asked by Ken if I had any interest in icon design, and definitely. So I designed the OmniOutliner 3 icon, the OmniGraphSketcher for Mac icon, the OmniGraphSketcher for iOS. With Joel Page, had a role in developing the OmniGraffle iconography. Then that slowly started to merge into UI design, but I was still responsible for all the marketing at that time, and at that time we were doing a lot of advertising in Macworld. We're doing full page ads in the magazine, which those were fun to do too. The website, I've lost count how many times had a direct hand in the redesigning of our website.

Brent: It's changed a lot over the years.

Grayson: It's changed a lot.

Brent: And often.

Grayson: Slowly from UI design I started having the opportunity to contribute on user experience. When I went to school that wasn't even a discipline, UX. It didn't exist. So it's been really interesting to be at the ground stage and watching this discipline start from birth until... I think maybe it's a teenager now?

Brent: Yeah, maybe.

Grayson: That's been really interesting. Then about four years ago, Molly and Ken came to me and talked to me about becoming the design manager and managing the UX side of things and while keeping the marketing side of ... marketing, website side of things.

Brent: And four years in you're still at it, haven't run away screaming or anything.

Grayson: No, not yet. No, it's been a lot of fun being there when the iPhone came out, being there for “iPad or Bust!” was really ... Looking back on it I look back on it fondly. It was really exciting. Lots of creative energy going on.

Brent: Outside of Omni, I understand you're into fitness and sports of various types.

Grayson: Big time. Currently I am into CrossFit. I am a CrossFit certified trainer, also into power lifting and kettlebells.

Brent: What are kettlebells?

Grayson: Interesting, kettlebells have a really cool history. They were originally designed to be a Russian measurement tool for agricultural use and they started exercising with them. And here we are 2018 ...

Brent: Now it's a thing you can buy, just for that.

Grayson: ... and they’re a fitness fad. It's really great for you and really versatile tool. Really got really heavy into sports when I was lot younger. I got into surfing really when I was around six or seven, my dad put me on a surfboard down in southern California, and I was like, "Oh, this is amazing," and kept surfing when I could. Going up in Oregon my parents would send me down to southern California during the summers because that's where all our family was. I loved it because it's southern California and it's warm and it's sunny, compared to Oregon where it's rainy and dreary. And I would bounce around all my relatives for two and a half months, and two of my uncles lived on the beach and that was amazing.

Brent: That's just good luck, right there.

Grayson: Yeah, I mean I grabbed my surfboard and walked across the street and went surfing. But then one day at my grandmother's house, it was July, the Tour de France was on. I loved riding my bike and I was enthralled by it and I was like, "Wait, I can compete? I can race my bicycle? That's a thing?" We're in the kitchen and all my uncles were there, and I said, "I'm going to be in the Tour de France one day," and they just laughed. I was like, "You know what? I'm going to do this." And then I said that and inside my head. And the next Christmas, my grandmother got me an Italian racing bike 'cause she saw how serious I was, and that's all I ended up talking about the rest of the summer. Maybe that was part of it too.

Brent: You needed that bike.

Grayson: Yeah.

Brent: Yeah.

Grayson: And so I got into bicycle racing. Started racing in Oregon and Washington. I got better and better, but toward the end of high school I kind of realized that Oregon and Washington really weren't the epicenter on the west coast for cycling and really it was down in southern California. And luckily-

Brent: The big leagues.

Grayson: Yeah. Luckily my grandmother lived down there and then she offered a room for me to come down there. So I worked part time and I trained every day. And then eventually I got better and better, went up through the ranks, and at one point, got onto a team that was gonna be sponsored. Really excited and was like, "Wow, this is starting to happen." And then, for the first race of the season, which was in Tucson, Arizona, me and my teammate arrived at the Orange County airport and we had credit cards that were issued by the team, so we had to buy our tickets to go there. We had all our gear. The credit cards got declined. And so, we make a few phone calls, there aren't cell phones then, we're on pay phones-

Brent: Yeah, right.

Grayson: ... trying to figure out what is going on.

Brent: Who's got a quarter?

Grayson: Yeah. And the team folded. They didn't tell us anything.

Brent: Wow. You're finding this out at the airport-

Grayson: At the airport.

Brent: ... as you're not buying tickets?

Grayson: And all of us on the team had turned down other opportunities.

Brent: Wow.

Grayson: And so, the teammate I was with at the time, who ended up becoming a really good friend of mine, had raced in Europe the year before. And Europe, that's where we all wanted to be at this level, we wanted to go to Europe, we wanted to race in Europe, that's where the best were. And he's like, "Do you want to go to Europe?" And I said, "Yeah, of course I want to go to Europe." And he goes, "No, do you want to go to Europe in like two weeks, 'cause we can still salvage this season." I'm like, "Okay."

Brent: Yep.

Grayson: So we left for Europe within two weeks. And before this, he kind of sold it that he had some connections.

Brent: Oh, sure.

Grayson: But unbeknownst to me, some of those connections had been burnt. So the very first night, we were in Ghent, Belgium, and we spent the night in a park with our jackets on. And we had our legs over our bike boxes so they wouldn't get stolen. And then we — this was pure luck, we saw a couple cyclists ride by. The looked like Americans to me 'cause they had American bikes. I go, "Are you guys Americans?" And they were. Ghent, Belgium at this time was sort of this hub for American cyclists to come and race.

Brent: Okay.

Grayson: And so, we hooked up with them, they helped us find some lodging. And then we kind of got integrated into the local scene and we just started racing. My first race there was just — I fell off the back within three laps. It was like a 15 lap race. It was so much faster than America is. It was crazy.

Brent: Oh wow.

Grayson: And eventually, I started getting better and better, meeting more and more people, getting more and more connections, and was able to create a connection with another team in Holland for the next season. So come the next season, you know, we're racing, it was a much more well supported team. I was getting better and better and I was starting to get a little bit of interest from some minor pro teams. Towards the end of the season, I was in a really bad crash and really hurt my leg pretty badly.

Grayson: Also what was going on at this time in cycling, 'cause this is the early-90s, was doping. Doping was becoming really rampant and almost a requirement to make it to the professional ranks. I witnessed doping quite a few number of times.

Brent: That just sucks.

Grayson: So I got injured and it also gave me a lot of opportunity to think. Pretty proud that my parents raised me not to be a cheater.

Brent: Yeah.

Grayson: I was like, "I don't really want to do this. I don't want to put a chemical in my body and I don't really wanna cheat." So I just gave it up, dealt with some depression after that,-

Brent: Sure, yeah.

Grayson: ... 'cause it was like the dream's over.

Brent: That was the dream, yeah. Did you actually race in France at any time?

Grayson: Oh yeah.

Brent: Yeah?

Grayson: Yeah, definitely. Raced all over Europe.

Brent: I lived in France in '92 and '93, in Grenoble. Did you by any chance-

Grayson: Yeah, we raced through Grenoble.

Brent: So you were probably there-

Grayson: We were up in those [inaudible 00:26:43] Mountains.

Brent: Oh, okay. You were there when I was there.

Grayson: Yeah.

Brent: Wow.

Grayson: Doping and injury aside, it was just awesome-

Brent: Yeah.

Grayson: ... to be racing over there, and racing on those roads that you saw on TV.

Brent: So much beautiful country.

Grayson: Yeah, and they love cycling.

Brent: Yeah.

Grayson: Americans don't.

Brent: Yeah.

Grayson: You were appreciated there.

Brent: Yeah, I remember when the Tour de France came through Grenoble. It was like a holiday, basically.

Grayson: Yeah.

Brent: Yeah, I mean it was a huge deal. Every single person cared about it.

Grayson: They even love amateur cycling and they're like, "Oh you're American. That's so cool that you're here." So it was awesome. Once I got over the depression part of it, I was like, "Oh, that was such a cool experience."

Brent: Yeah.

Grayson: But then I found CrossFit about six years ago. That's kind of changed my life. And now, I'm really into kiteboarding.

Brent: Kiteboarding? It looks like fun.

Grayson: It's the most amazing feeling to be pulled by the wind on a surfboard, out in the ocean or-

Brent: I believe it, yeah.

Grayson: ... a lake. It's indescribable, especially when you jump. It's just silent. There's no sound-

Brent: Right.

Grayson: ... except your kite whistling through the air. It's special. I fell in love with it instantly about nine years ago. My wife and I were driving on the Washington side of the Columbia River and I looked over at the river and there was a single person out there, had a kite in the air, and they were on a surfboard. Just looked like they were ripping down the river. And I was like, "I have to do that." I wasn't surfing a whole lot then. The water here is so cold.

Brent: Yeah.

Grayson: And so, about a year later, my wife got me lessons for my birthday.

Brent: Cool.

Grayson: And I fell in love with it. I mean, super hard to get into. It's tough to learn and there's some danger, but it's manageable once you learn the safety aspects of it. And as I was getting better and better, I met this guy, this instructor, and he mentioned this place that was really great for kiteboarding. It's called La Ventana, it's in Baja California Sur. And I had spent some time in Baja, north of Baja, but I've never been Baja California Sur. So I eventually went down there and it's just like this perfect place in terms of the geography and the wind set up. The wind comes on at 11 a.m., turns off at 4, almost every single day.

Brent: Wow. Just like it's scheduled, designed-

Grayson: Yeah.

Brent: ... to be that way. Yeah.

Grayson: And the water's warm. The people are great, the locals are great. It's just really special. I've fallen in love with it, my wife has now fallen in love with it to the point that we store a conversion van, which is basically a small RV, and our old Honda Element down there. I spend between four and six weeks a year there now.

Brent: Oh, that's cool. So you get to to do plenty of kiteboarding-

Grayson: Yeah.

Brent: ... and enjoy that.

Grayson: Kiteboarding season's really perfect down there because it's November through about April. Well, that's our winter.

Brent: Yeah, right. Yeah, the rainy season here, yeah. When the sun just goes away.

Grayson: Yeah.

Brent: That's pretty cool.

Grayson: Yeah. I've made so many great friends doing that sport. I love kiteboarding here locally and to go out on Lake Washington this time of year is great.

Brent: Yeah.

Grayson: Go up north, go into Puget Sound. It's still cold, gotta wear a wetsuit, but it's fun.

Brent: Still, yeah?

Grayson: Yeah.

Brent: That's pretty cool. So, quick question. Cat person or dog person?

Grayson: Cats.

Brent: Cats are better.

Grayson: So much better.

Brent: They are better.

Grayson: I love dogs,-

Brent: Yeah.

Grayson: ... but dogs are like boats.

Brent: Other people's dogs.

Grayson: Yeah. Yeah. I want other people's dogs, not my own.

Brent: Yeah. So you have a couple cats?

Grayson: We have two cats. One is, well we say he's a Norwegian Forest cat 'cause he looked like a Norwegian Forest cat on the internet, but he's probably just a barn cat. That's Hershey. And then Sally, she's black as midnight. They're great. They're about middle age.

Brent: Okay.

Grayson: Super fun.

Brent: Well you must be glad we're posting cat pictures.

Grayson: Finally! I wasn't sure...

Brent: Well, you have to send me yours 'cause I wanna add those.

Grayson: I'll send you mine.

Brent: Yeah, right. Tomorrow's — listeners should know that we're recording a couple weeks in advance, but tomorrow's will be Michelle's cat, Calvin.

Grayson: Oh.

Brent: Half of the Calvin and Hobbes duo.

Grayson: Oh, I'm excited to meet Calvin through pictures.

Brent: Yeah. Yeah, Calvin is a Ragdoll.

Grayson: Yeah?

Brent: And very fluffy and nice looking.

Grayson: My wife wants a Ragdoll

Brent: Yeah. They look cool. Well anyway, on that note, we will close this off. I will say, thanks Grayson.

Grayson: Thank you.

Brent: I'd also like to thank our intrepid producer, Mark Boszko. Say hello Mark.

Mark Boszko: Hello Mark!

Brent: And especially, I want to thank you for listening. Thank you. Music!

[MUSIC PLAYS]