THE OMNI SHOW

Brent Simmons: You're listening to The Omni Show. Get to know the people and stories behind The Omni Group's award-winning productivity apps for Mac and iOS. Music!

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Brent Simmons: I'm your host, Brent Simmons. We have a very special episode today. We have Daniel Jalkut on the line. Daniel is the developer of MarsEdit, which is a blogging app for Macs, and he's cohost of the Core Intuition podcast with Manton Reece. Daniel is also a longtime personal friend who I've known for about 15 years or so. Say hello, Daniel.

Daniel Jalkut: Hello Daniel.

Brent Simmons: Very well done. So Daniel, you're a busy person. You've got an app and you've got a podcast. Well, what else do you do? How do you occupy your time?

Daniel Jalkut: Oh, I have children. That's how I occupy—

Brent Simmons: Well there you go.

Daniel Jalkut: ... a lot of my time. I've been working lately on some contract work because my app and my podcast are not completely paying all the bills, but it's kind of nice to get a change of pace with that too. Getting to work with people for a change and seeing different styles of programming. It's kind of nice. The contract work I'm doing is 100% Objective-C and over the past several years I've been switching most of my personal work to Swift. So it's a full fledged excuse to dip back into the past, very, very recent past. And it's kind of fun.

Brent Simmons: And you have a couple other apps too, right? You have Black Ink—

Daniel Jalkut: Yes.

Brent Simmons: ... Crosswords and FastScripts. I use FastScripts every day. Well and MarsEdit pretty much every day, too.

Daniel Jalkut: Yeah, I think I have a few good dedicated FastScripts users up at Omni and that's always gratifying to hear that people are using it. And that is one of my oldest apps. I was just talking to someone the other day about FastScripts. I think... I need to go back and check like the records, but it's probably around 20 years old. So it's-

Brent Simmons: Wow, no kidding.

Daniel Jalkut: It's been one of these things that I started at Apple before OS X and then I made the jump to OS X development before the initial release. And so I was working on the public betas, even like Rhapsody stuff. I can't remember the details exactly, but at one point, early, early on I was still interested in AppleScript from the Mac OS 9 days , but there weren't any good tools for running AppleScripts on OS X. So FastScripts happened.

Daniel Jalkut: Black Ink is funny. For the benefit of listeners, I acquired MarsEdit. And also for the benefit of listeners, almost all of whom must know, Brent Simmons, our host, actually was the original developer of MarsEdit, but I acquired MarsEdit and as a fluke of luck, I ended up acquiring this crossword app, Black Ink, within about a month. So it was this weird time in 2007—

Brent Simmons: You went on a buying spree?

Daniel Jalkut: Yeah, I was on a buying spree. I haven't acquired anything since then. I don't know why. Maybe I should? But I have a nice diversity of apps to work on when I feel like working on scripting utility, I've got that. A crossword app, I've got that. Got some other funny apps. But then as you said, MarsEdit is my main jam, so to speak. And I've been working on it now for 12 years. Which is amazing to say out loud, but that's in addition to I think the first five years or so that you worked on it.

Daniel Jalkut: So it's been an interesting time.

Brent Simmons: Yeah, I bet I didn't work on it for five years. I bet It was more like two.

Daniel Jalkut: Two, and then did Gus a little work, and then we moved along.

Brent Simmons: Yep. Yep. Well, MarsEdit's been very happy at its new home.

Daniel Jalkut: Yes.

Brent Simmons: So given all this family, all these apps, contracting, how do you use OmniFocus to keep all this stuff straight?

Daniel Jalkut: I use OmniFocus as the center, it's the core of my attempt to keep my life together. I say "attempt" not because OmniFocus is falling short or anything, but because — probably a lot of people could relate to this— I go in spurts of tackling my to do items and sometimes letting them slide. But everything... I'm one of these OmniFocus users who takes the, if it's not in OmniFocus, it doesn't exist type of approach to life.

Daniel Jalkut: At least I should add a caveat. As you know, as a software developer, I have a bug tracking system. So a lot of stuff goes into my bug tracking system that's not in OmniFocus. The bug tracking, it's a little bit more like that's my job. And the OmniFocus stuff is everything about my... I mean I have professional stuff in there, but it's everything I intend personally to do, and I have it organized into, I do have like a personal, professional... And then as I alluded to, having kids and family, I have a wife, I have a family section. I really liked splitting things up at the highest level into these three categories.

Brent Simmons: That makes sense.

Daniel Jalkut: And then I can focus on those and I just keep everything in there. And I've done some things with OmniFocus that you couldn't understand. You shouldn't understand. One of the things I still use with OmniFocus that you might remember, I blogged about this few years ago. I have this, I think it's quite incredible, setup with OmniFocus where as folks who use OmniFocus on iOS know, you can say like, "Hey, Dingus, add a reminder in OmniFocus to take out the trash." And I was not satisfied with that. I wanted to just say, "Hey, Dingus, remind me to take out the trash." And it always goes to OmniFocus. Now, as far as I know, this is still not possible on iOS, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I ended up implementing this as something I called reminder plumbing. I had a blog post about it, and basically—

Brent Simmons: I'll put that in the show notes.

Daniel Jalkut: I have a regular task on my Mac, which is always running, and all it does is look for things in Apple's reminders, and if it finds something, pops it over to OmniFocus. So—

Brent Simmons: Sweet.

Daniel Jalkut: My workflow with OmniFocus is so integrated that even if I just say, "Hey, Dingus..." on my phone, it's going to go to OmniFocus. And I really like that because, like I said, everything, if it's not an OmniFocus, it doesn't exist. Oh, I should add this: I know that on iOS, a really brilliant feature of OmniFocus on iOS is that it will import items, like you can give it a named list and it'll import items from it. But—

Brent Simmons: From Reminders?

Daniel Jalkut: From Reminders. Yeah.

Brent Simmons: Okay.

Daniel Jalkut: And I tried that at first, but then even then, you have to run the OmniFocus app on the iPhone. So if I'm like heading home and there's this urgent thing I want to be reminded of, I can, say, tell Dingus on my iPhone to set a reminder. But then if I don't open OmniFocus on the way home, it won't get ingested. So I have this amazing setup. You can link to it. And then other nerds who are as crazy wrapped up in OmniFocus as I am can consider running this script to automatically import items and move them over to OmniFocus where they belong.

Brent Simmons: That's just sounds awesome. Is it an AppleScript script?

Daniel Jalkut: It is, yes. It uses AppleScript to get the information out of... I'm trying to remember. It's been so long. It at least uses an AppleScript to add it to OmniFocus. And it might use native code to grab the information out of the Reminders database.

Brent Simmons: Oh, I guess I didn't realize we had access to that via native code. That's cool.

Daniel Jalkut: I mean it's the cool thing about Apple's... the same thing with their calendar and their reminder system and their contact system, is third party developers can access that stuff and it shows up in places like in OmniFocus. You might notice sometimes it says like, "Here's something that you didn't put into OmniFocus, but I noticed it's coming up on your calendar." And that's a cool feature that OmniFocus gets from being able to peek into the calendar.

Brent Simmons: Yeah, that's great. Do you ever find yourself filing things in OmniFocus that say "Post the following bug to the bug tracker?"

Daniel Jalkut: I do absolutely, all the time. It's my first line of dealing with anything that I have to do at all. So that will include things like file a bug against myself, file a bug with Apple, little things like I get an email and I see that the email came in and I noticed that it's important and I don't even want to do anything like tap it and try to create a new to-do from it. So I just say, "Hey, Dingus remind me to reply to that email from Brent." So everything goes through and for me it's an important part of managing everything to make sure that there's a single point where everything funnels through. And without that there would be someplace where things got lost. There'd be like a... I used to do copious paper notes. I used to do like checklists on paper and have notes and there'd always be index cards next to my computer. I'm looking here at my computer, I still have the pile of index cards, but I don't use them for to do's anymore.

Brent Simmons: Oh, okay. When you're at your Mac, I assume you have OmniFocus for Mac running, or you tend to be more looking at it on like your iPhone or iPad to the side?

Daniel Jalkut: Almost always on the Mac, actually. I do enjoy it. I would say I use OmniFocus 80% on the Mac, 20% on iOS and it's almost never iOS in my home. I use those features, like OmniFocus’ geo located lists, so you can say, "Hey, here I am at the hardware store." And it'll say, "Well here's something that you can buy." So I love those things about the iOS version. Not as applicable on the home version, but I like setting those kinds of things up so that I can just know, because here's the truth of it. Why do I love OmniFocus? Because I'm one of these people, maybe you can relate, who forgets everything and—

Brent Simmons: Everything entirely. Yep.

Daniel Jalkut: Everything. I don't even know who I'm talking to right now.

Brent Simmons: If it didn't say on the screen, I'm looking at Daniel Jalkut, I wouldn't know.

Daniel Jalkut: Well I'm just looking at some notes that say "Omni Show" and I guess that's what we are on.

Brent Simmons: Yeah. Oh we're recording.

Daniel Jalkut: Yeah, it's real great, I mean it's amazing to think of people like me who tried to get through life without some of these technological aids because, I mean, like I said, the index cards were helpful and I suppose I'd be muddling through with the index cards if it wasn't for software. But it sure is a nice aid to somebody who is otherwise pretty capable about getting things done and accomplishing things. It's just would be hopeless because I would just forget everything I ever wanted to do.

Brent Simmons: Mm-hmm (affirmative). So when you're using the app, do you tend to live in one particular view? Like for me, I'm almost always in the forecast view unless I'm doing some kind of entering a bunch of stuff or managing a certain project. That way I'm always looking at what I have to do today.

Daniel Jalkut: Pretty much exactly the same here. Forecast is big. The exceptions are I actually have an OmniFocus task, a recurring task that is every day, and I have to admit, sometimes I let it slide, but my task every day is "clear out the OmniFocus inbox." So it's like a little meta task. It says, "Hey, get over there into the inbox you've been ignoring because you've just been looking at the forecast." And that's where all the stuff that I've added, either through — I use the OmniFocus keyboard shortcut for quick add, it's like ⌃⌥-space maybe. And that's my Mac based version of the "hey, Dingus" on my iPhone. So everything shows up in my inbox. I get a reminder that says, "Hey, this is one of the things you need to do." It comes up on the forecast, "You need to go clear out your inbox." Go in there, organize all that stuff, assign it, delete it, tag it, whatever.

Daniel Jalkut: And then the only other time I really spend outside of that is if I'm doing some real, structural reorganization or if I have things like taxes in OmniFocus. One of the things I've gotten better at is filing taxes.

Brent Simmons: That seems important.

Daniel Jalkut: Yeah, well I only achieved it by gradually, over the years, building this list of things I keep in OmniFocus. It's like everything you could imagine you have to do to file your taxes, in a nested hierarchy. And so I use a focus view on that. I focus that in a new window if I'm working on that.

Brent Simmons: Oh, that makes sense.

Daniel Jalkut: Yeah.

Brent Simmons: Do you have to file quarterly?

Daniel Jalkut: No, I'm a sole proprietor/LLC, so I just do the annual thing.

Brent Simmons: Oh good. Whew!

Daniel Jalkut: Yeah. But that sort of reminds me the other thing I like using with OmniFocus, this is something I want to develop more, is I have a bunch of reusable lists in OmniFocus, which are things like... I'm looking at it right now. I have a whole category of reusable lists that are called "travel". And I have a generic traveling checklist and then I have checklists for the places I travel to frequently. Like "travel checklist New York." And then one of the things that gets me out of the forecast view is if I'm going to go start planning a trip to New York, I have this section of OmniFocus that's kind of not intended to be used actively. It's like my templates. They're all unchecked, uncompleted lists and then when I want to use one I option drag it into the correct area and then I have a new item and I can name it like "New York, October 2019" but it's got all my stuff I ever put on my checklist for New York, and I like that.

Brent Simmons: That's cool.

Daniel Jalkut: That's a nice trick for me to have. Not just things that I think of off the fly, but things that I collect over time as like my, if you want to do New York right this is how you do it every time.

Brent Simmons: Yeah. That's smart. Yeah. Because you're applying your learning and experience to refining those lists.

Daniel Jalkut: Yep.

Brent Simmons: Some people do those templates using a script, but I like your simple method of just having it there and option dragging to copy it.

Daniel Jalkut: Well to be honest with you, I have an ambition to sort of scriptify this a little bit more because I love OmniFocus' script ability. I use some scripts already. I have a script that... Well speaking of these reusable lists, I have a script called "recursively mark undone," just goes through whatever I'm on and just makes it all undone again. And that was sort of a precursor to me figuring out this, just make one fresh one and keep copying it. But I have an idea to sort of like make this, these reusable lists, more componentized. In these travel lists, for example, I already have these sections like "clothing" and to be honest, I mean this is funny, I'm not a neat person or an organized person, but OmniFocus inspires me to be a little bit fussy.

Daniel Jalkut: So I have it in my travel list. I have things like "clothing warm weather", "clothing cold weather", right? So I do have it in mind that I could have a script that I could say "taking a trip", and then it would just say like, it would prompt me and say like, "Okay, where are you going? What season is it? Et cetera." And then I'd have this great automatic list. Maybe that's a little too fussy, but—

Brent Simmons: I don't know. It sounds pretty cool though. Yeah. It would know if you needed warm or cold, and yeah.

Daniel Jalkut: Exactly. And what it would do is it would know where to find in my sort of repository of golden OmniFocus checklists, how to piece them together. And I'd be golden.

Brent Simmons: I wonder if… We're working on Omni Automation, which will bring JavaScript scripting to OmniFocus. I wonder if this would make it easier for you, more likely to do these kinds of things? Or are you such an AppleScript old hand that it doesn't actually matter that much?

Daniel Jalkut: You know what? It's going to make it easier eventually, probably. Because we're not going to have the choice of AppleScript eventually, I think.

Brent Simmons: Yeah. I wonder.

Daniel Jalkut: I think that's sort of a healthy fear, anyway, for anybody who's interested in automation. I wouldn't be surprised if maybe that was in the back of somebody's mind when they started looking at Omni Automation.

Brent Simmons: Yeah, I actually wouldn't know. But I've been living with the fear of AppleScript going away for 19 years now.

Daniel Jalkut: Yeah. Well it's—

Brent Simmons: I'm treating the fear itself as a permanent state of affairs.

Daniel Jalkut: Yeah. Well, and I know that Sal Saghoian has been working with you folks, right?

Brent Simmons: Yep.

Daniel Jalkut: Yeah, that's great for you. Through Omni, I hope that he can help you guys establish this new way of scripting, but just on that note, like speaking of like being worried about AppleScript for 19 years, it used to be when you were worried about AppleScript, you look to Apple and you say, well, at least Sal is still there.

Brent Simmons: Yeah, that's a good point. Yeah.

Daniel Jalkut: So here's hoping for the best. Hopefully he will help you all just make a standard. Establish at least a strategy for moving forward.

Brent Simmons: Yeah. Yeah. And it seems like JavaScript is the language of today, at least in general terms. So that's probably a good choice.

Daniel Jalkut: Yeah, it's funny, I have this blog post from years and years ago where I proposed JavaScript should be the new scripting language for the Mac. Should dig that up, see how it holds up. But I'm not married to AppleScript. I love it because it's there. And I do appreciate some of the user friendly aspects of it, being readable. But I think it earns that read only language.

Brent Simmons: Yeah. It's hard to write—

Daniel Jalkut: ... sort of combination.

Brent Simmons: Yeah.

Daniel Jalkut: But I'd be happy to have something new. I'm kind of optimistic that the iOS, what's it called? Shortcuts?

Brent Simmons: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Daniel Jalkut: ...that will make a sort of intrusion into the Mac, but we'll see how things go, I guess.

Brent Simmons: Yeah. I hope that happens. Yeah, we should definitely see. I never loved AppleScript the language. As you mentioned, it's read only. But I loved what it enabled, and the technology under the hood of Apple events. Even if writing Apple events code in C, or whatever, or Objective-C, is not beautiful. What Apple events could do was beautiful. Is beautiful.

Daniel Jalkut: Yes. Right. And I guess we probably just have to accept it that that level of integration is, at least the way we enjoyed it with Apple events, I don't think that's coming back as it was.

Brent Simmons: Right.

Daniel Jalkut: But it's interesting to watch how people make the effort to achieve the same kinds of things with technology like shortcuts. And if it ends up achieving the same kinds of things, I really don't care how it gets done, but it is a really nice resource to have that ability to go the extra mile. I know Omni's apps are great for this because I mostly use OmniFocus in recent years. I haven't done a lot with other Omni apps, but I know that AppleScript has often been, or increasingly, I guess now this new scriptability, but the ability to automate Omni apps I think is something I've always appreciated because it allows Omni's apps to span from that beginner level user to the like highly advanced level user, without impinging on the usability at either end. And I think that's what this kind of automation really is for.

Brent Simmons: Yeah. People do things that either we would never dream of or we wouldn't put those in the app because it's a thing that only helps a single person—

Daniel Jalkut: Right.

Brent Simmons: ...or just a few people, but they can make it themselves and that's huge. MarsEdit is scriptable too, as I recall. Right?

Daniel Jalkut: It is. Yep.

Brent Simmons: It's a good thing in general for Mac apps. Yeah.

Daniel Jalkut: Yeah. I always get really disappointed when I see a Mac app that I think, "Oh, this doesn't quite do what I want." And I go to the— I use FastScripts myself all the time. One of the things that FastScripts is great for, is you can give it keyboard shortcuts. So I have a keyboard shortcut, no matter what app I'm in, it will open up the app's dictionary and create a new script in Script Editor. And I often just hit that keystroke to see, well what will this app let me do? And increasingly, of course, it's "this app is not scriptable." But when it is, it's often very gratifying to be able to say, "Okay well this lets me go to the final mile of this marathon." Get what I want out of the app.

Brent Simmons: So let's give folks a chance to know you a little bit better. Where did you go to college, Daniel?

Daniel Jalkut: Well the funny thing is, I went to college twice. Everything about my education is funny. So I guess I should say I went to college three times. I went to college once when I left high school early as a 15 year old, and I went to community college in Santa Cruz, California, Cabrillo Community College. And I didn't really know what I was doing, didn't know what I wanted to do. I just didn't want to be in high school.

Brent Simmons: Yeah, that's a pretty early age, so yeah.

Daniel Jalkut: Yeah. I'm grateful in retrospect that I knew enough about myself to know I didn't want to be in high school, but I also knew enough about myself that I didn't want to be aimless without anything I was doing. And then in the absence of anything else, I sort of just kept going to school. But in college too, to sort of have something I'm doing. And I ended up transferring to UC Santa Cruz very close by. That's the University of California. And I got a degree title that dates from the 60s: Computer and Informational Sciences.

Brent Simmons: CIS?

Daniel Jalkut: Yeah, CIS. Because they added "computer" to the existing Informational Sciences degree.

Brent Simmons: Ah, right.

Daniel Jalkut: And then I got a degree, and went to work for Apple almost like before I even graduated. And then—

Brent Simmons: So this is mid-90s or what are we talking about?

Daniel Jalkut: Yeah. I graduated in 1995 and I had started working as a contractor at Apple off and on in 1994.

Brent Simmons: This is before Steve Jobs's return even?

Daniel Jalkut: It was, yeah, I was actually working for Gil Amelio, then Steve Jobs came back. I got hired, I think a little before Steve Jobs came back in 1996. Worked there until 2002. I quit Apple in 2002 and decided to go back to school for a second degree.

Daniel Jalkut: And this time I went to another sort of smaller school. I went to City College of San Francisco to sort of shore up my prerequisites to go to San Francisco State for a music degree. So I got two degrees almost exactly 10 years apart. I ended up graduating in 2005 with a second degree from San Francisco State and it was all part of that process of leaving Apple and getting this music degree that I got tuned into the idea of being an indie software developer, because I didn't have a job. I was like, "Oh yeah, and money might be kind of nice."

Brent Simmons: You could make something and sell it. It's worked for some people.

Daniel Jalkut: Exactly. Yep.

Brent Simmons: Yeah.

Daniel Jalkut: So that's what got me down that path. And I was doing consulting and then I started making my own apps, and actually to be honest with you was a big turning point for me when I took over MarsEdit. That was like a great opportunity to get an existing user base that was passionate, fired up about the app. I was among them. I was one of the people fired up about MarsEdit. I was a user before I took it over.

Brent Simmons: I remember it well, yeah.

Daniel Jalkut: And so that was kind of a good little kickstart for me. I just can't believe it's been 12 years since then.

Brent Simmons: Yeah. Wow. Time flies. I've been at Omni for five years.

Daniel Jalkut: I saw that. I saw your blog post, that's great.

Brent Simmons: Just stuns me. Yeah.

Daniel Jalkut: Yeah.

Brent Simmons: That's cool. So what made you go to music school?

Daniel Jalkut: Well, I've always been interested in music. I don't know if I was always interested in music independently of this, but I can trace back to the third grade — this is just an example of the power of teachers. In the third grade, we're all singing in our class and the music teacher just said, "You have a good singing voice." And I was like, "Oh, I didn't know that." And it's kind of like, too bad for all the other kids that she didn't say that to, at least that day. But it stuck with me and I was like, "maybe I'm a music person?" And it informed me not being afraid to be musical, and I don't think — I never became like a virtuoso of anything, but I was always interested in music and I think I engaged in music a little more naturally than some people do.

Daniel Jalkut: And when I was at the UC Santa Cruz, I ended up taking like an entry level music theory class. And then at that point I sort of thought like, "Was this the wrong idea? Should I have gone to music school instead of computer and informational sciences school?" But it was too late. It was like the last semester of my degree, and I got my degree. And I was out of there and I went to work at Apple, and I think it was sort of nagging at me all that time. Like what would have happened if I would've gone to music school? And I sort of just decided — I was, I think, 26 years old when I left Apple.

Brent Simmons: Still pretty young.

Daniel Jalkut: Pretty young. And yeah, I had a pretty long career at Apple for a young person. And I left Apple just to sort of like make sure I wasn't missing something. Actually and it turns out I wasn't.

Brent Simmons: Still though, going to music school, even if you don't become a professional musician, that just must be great. I love music too. I play a little, but I haven't been to school. It would be great to have the time to learn a lot more.

Daniel Jalkut: Yeah. It was amazing. It was a great opportunity for me that was only possible because I had had those several years working at Apple as a young person. Fairly frugal, no family yet, relatively inexpensive rent. I was able to save up money and basically look at that as like "I can afford to." And I said earlier I needed to get some money so I started doing some contracting. I didn't strictly probably need to get the money, but it was nice not to be just draining all my savings. But it was nice to have that safety net, and it was amazing experience because I had no idea how grueling music school is.

Brent Simmons: Really?

Daniel Jalkut: Even for people who have practiced their whole lives. I think a lot of people did find it very difficult. I don't think San Francisco State was unusual. It's just, they demand a lot of you, and as a person who was not a lifetime — like a lot of people in that program were taking lessons their whole life. They were, let's just say it, they were a lot better than me. But yeah, it was a trial by fire. It was kind of cool. It was cool to just have every day be, you need to go practice some music stuff and learn some music stuff. And I had a lot of semesters that were, every day started at 8:00 AM with ear training class. So seriously, like I said, that trial by fire.

Brent Simmons: Yeah. I couldn't. Even at age 26. 8:00 AM for ear training? No. So between the two of us, we have one degree on average.

Daniel Jalkut: Oh yeah. Okay. Yeah. That's good. See, you didn't miss anything.

Brent Simmons: That's right.

Daniel Jalkut: See, for the folks who don't know, I've had the benefit of interviewing Brent before on my Bitsplitting podcast, right? That was on there, right?

Brent Simmons: Yeah. That was on Bitsplitting. Yeah. You can just remember things.

Daniel Jalkut: So I can just conjure, I can just pull out of thin air, Evergreen State College.

Brent Simmons: Yep. I had two years. Two years of not very productive anything, then a little community college. But yeah. Yeah, no degree for me. I like to brag that I'm the first person in my family not to get a degree.

Daniel Jalkut: You really bucked the trend. You really pulled your family out of that academic slump.

Brent Simmons: Yeah. I know. I mean my nuclear families, my parents and my sister, they all have advanced degrees. I got nothing.

Daniel Jalkut: See, it's kind of like what you said with the average between us being one. It's the average between you and your families. You don't need to even register.

Brent Simmons: Yep.

Daniel Jalkut: Well you know they don't have a Macworld Eddy, either.

Brent Simmons: Yeah. Heck, I've got two. So between the four of us we each have average a half. Well, on that note, I'd say this has been a great podcast and thanks so much for coming in and talking to us about how you use OmniFocus and then letting people get the chance to know you.

Daniel Jalkut: Thanks so much for letting me be the first. Am I the first non-Omni...?

Brent Simmons: Yeah, you're the first remote recording.

Daniel Jalkut: I love it. It's great to be here at Omni, and thanks so much for doing the show. Thanks for all your great software and—

Brent Simmons: Oh, thank you again.

Daniel Jalkut: ... again, thanks for letting me be on your show.

Brent Simmons: Oh, where can people find you on the web?

Daniel Jalkut: A good place to start is my blog, bitsplitting.org.

Brent Simmons: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Daniel Jalkut: I also have my company, which is Red Sweater. Which is red-sweater.com. And I'm on a lot of social media sites as @danielpunkass.

Brent Simmons: So the real answer is you don't have to find Daniel on the web. He'll pretty much find you.

Daniel Jalkut: He'll find you.

Brent Simmons: Well, I'd also like to thank our intrepid producer, Mark Boszko. Say hello, Mark.

Mark Boszko: Hello Mark.

Brent Simmons: And especially, I want to thank you for listening. Thank you.

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